I only dislike extremist republicans. The gay-bashing, christian, uber-conservative ones. While I'm far-left, I chose to be open minded and neutral towards conservative points and beliefs.

Hurf durf, the enemy were communists during the Finnish Civil War, wait were they also police state activists?

sorry I get mixed up between your bullshit and communism's bullshit. When the revolution in Russia occurred, the property of many was taken away...

The workers in the communes couldn't move past a certain area namely communes.

The bourgeoisie profited yes, but the Tsar, well one of the last ones created many reforms emancipating the serfs, etc... So thats not gonna be taken into account at all? good job ignoring facts 'slappy'.

So are you American then? So all monarchies are the same? nice on the generalizing there. Whats this worker's democracy bullshit? You were just talking about a stateless society.

Wasn't communism supposed to go:

1. dictatorship to take away everyone's hard earned property

2. worker's democracy or according to you stateless society?

But really it went:

1. Totalitarian Police State that killed millions
2. Collapse and is now a shithole

Well that was using Russia as an example, but whatever.

Also you don't really understand the significance of the Winter War for Finnish people. It was the war in which Finland learned you really can't trust anyone.

Sorry for being an idealist,

sorry I'm not some cynical little bitch who whines about the world and how corrupt it is.

I was like you when I was 13, I thought the whole world was horrible, people were going to die.

But thankfully I already knew communism was absolute bullshit. Communism also would only work if everyone was an idealist...

Then I grew up and I realized, there are a hell of a lot of good things in the world.

So maybe you should stop being a communist, go get crunk and have some fun for once in your lifetime.

Idea for a thread recieved. Thanks,

Also, Christian? Thats not very nice, you act like we all hate gay people :(

They were not communists then. Just because you call yourself a communist, doesn't actually make you one. You have to understand, except and realize it.

No shit, really?

where are you getting this from? oh that's right, your ass.


uh, that was under Alexander. Under Nicholas, he ordered his men to fire on protesters.


No, I'm from Ireland
Workers democracy was a term coined by Marx. It's the social and individual makeup of society that is Communist. You're whining about communism, yet you don't know anything about it GJ


no


yes.



It was a shithole before that killed millions. And even then, it was never communist.


Don't see how that is relevant.


no you're just retarded. And I don't see how you being ignorant nad supporting a system that has killed countless amounts of people is "idealism"

uh... you are.

What on earth are you talking about? BTW, I told you this before, I am older then you.


Are you Autistic?


That's cool. Too bad you didn't grow up


I had to google Crunk

haha, you have NO idea, mate.

Edited:



It's in your bible

it's funny because finland was one of the cradles of the russian revolution, like the baltics. ironically, also like the baltic states, the workers were crushed in the uprising by the imperialist germans who wanted to dismantle russia.

the winter war was a disappointing reality of the nationalism of finnish leaders. the USSR wanted some territory north of leningrad, which was bordering fiercely conservative and anti-communist finland, in exchange of a large section of soviet karelia. when the finns declined, the soviets, who saw themselves as deserving of former russian empire lands, which were only taken from them by the imperialist germans and later, the intervening entente who fought on the side of the white army, saw only bad things coming from leaving the matter be. the result was the soviets took the land after a bloody war.

The USSR was in conflict with imperialist powers since the beginning of its existence, who attacked internally and externally. i disagree with earthen's view of the USSR, as I think it had both very good and very bad sides. but it being a police state I doubt, lest we are going to call any state that deals with large amounts of internal turmoil a police state. with this logic, i can call western 'democracies' police states, when they harshly clamped down on advancements of not just communist movements, but social democrats and anti-war activists. a bit more notable of these is the first red scare in america, where the government took the opportunity of using anarchist bombings to crush the workers' movement and dismantle the anti-war movement. another example is western capitalist intervention in the politics of any country that had a growing support of communists, such as France and Italy after WW2, both of which had the largest communist parties of europe, next the USSR. in those cases, elections in those countries were manipulated, by the spearhead of the american CIA, the Truman doctrine, and an anti-democratic plan called Operation Gladio.

both capitalism and the movements of 20th century communists have their hands bloodied in very, very dirty politics. though, i personally feel the 'tyrannical' actions of 20th century communists are circumstantial, and in no way related to socialism. it would be more accurate to say it is more related to any revolution, especially ones that are fiercely opposed and beset on all sides, like the russian revolution was.

Are you saying that the Winter War was not justified on Finland's part. Are you saying we should just have given the Russians our land? The Winter War was proof that a small country with determination can overcome all odds. The whites were only during the Finnish Civil War. There were communists along with aristocrats who fought for Finland against the Russians. We were only defending our country, saying anything against that is a direct insult to Finland. The Russians in no way deserved Finland. Our soldiers fought bravely against all odds, and that is the truth, they defended their country against tyrannical fiends who felt they could decide for another country. If you say that Finland should have agreed to Russia's demands, then you are no better than the criminals at the Munich conference of 1938. I say criminals because those so called 'allies' decided another country's fate without consulting it. Finland received little help from other countries and thus we are under no obligation to help others. What has the world done for Finland. Finland was to be called the Fascist Dictatorship and Russia to be called the free democracy under the clauses in the Paris Peace Treaty of 1947. The nationalism in the Winter War was entirely justified, would you not also hate the people invading your homeland. I would have fought for Finland and I would today. No country has the right to simply decide what is right for another. Unless there are crimes being committed such as war crimes and crimes against humanity. Finland defended itself righteously and that is all. We are an example of an independent nation fighting for its well-earned freedom against those who would take it away by force without reason.

Timoshenko said, "The Russians have learned much in this hard war in which the Finns fought with Heroism."

"Finland so sublime has shown what free men can do." or something like that

did you even read my post? i said the the winter war was a pointless war that could have been avoided had it not been for the nationalism of the far right finnish leaders who felt it was prudent to send finnish workers to fight for their chauvinism instead of agreeing to a proposal which finland benefited more from.

and comparing the finnish-soviet land agreement to the munich agreement is fucking ridiculous because that was determined by the allies and the germans, with the czechs sitting the sides. finland did not sit on the sides of this agreement.

where did i say nationalism didn't work? again, i doubt you even read my post

Idea for a thread recieved. Thanks,

Also, Christian? Thats not very nice, you act like we all hate gay people :(

Your not being a good Christian if you don't hate everyone but straight white Christians.

How can you possibly say that Finland would have benefited. The Soviet Union's intentions were clear. They would just ask for more land, you have contradicted yourself. The nationalism was not felt by just the far right, it was felt by all from the workers to the aristocrats. All you are doing is talking about are the what ifs of history. How do you know Finland would have benefited? Had Finland agreed, the Soviet Union would just ask for more land.

Germany didn't even attack from the north,

oh ho

you fell for my clever rouse, Earthen.

oh ho

you fell for my clever rouse, Earthen.

also you never answered my question, have you ever visited a place ruled by communism, even the little places in India where it supposedly works? Or are you merely accepting defeat now?

Kerry sucked and was a bad choice for the Dems, but REPUBLICANS are the reason that we had eight years of that moron in our White House.

I still think Bush should be tried for treason for lying to the American public.

Yes, because being told something by the intelligence community and then telling it to the people is lying...

Maybe you should go around and ask ex-communists what they wanted, they'll probably tell you how stupid of an idea it was.

The USSR was better than what was before and after it, and my parents, who both lived there since the final days of Stalin, will agree with that.

this. also there's fondness for old communist governments in former east germany and former yugoslavia most notably.

people in east germany realized the west isn't all it's hyped up to be, and desire a reformed GDR (like they did back when the berlin wall fell. they didn't want the dissolution of the GDR, in fact no referendum on that was even held). people in former yugoslavia admire Tito and desire the unity and prosperity communist yugoslavia brought.

things aren't so black and white.

The USSR was better than what was before and after it, and my parents, who both lived there since the final days of Stalin, will agree with that.

Tito I admire greatly.

Bullshit. If the USSR wanted finland, they would have annexed finland when they defeated them in the continuation war. Instead they left them to be neutral, modelling after austria, in the cold war.

Soviet reasoning was simple. There was nothing separating leningrad from german-aligned finland. So the soviets offered the finnish section of karelia for some land north of leningrad, which was a fraction of the size.

When I spoke of the soviets feeling they deserved finland, I meant that finland only didn't become part of the USSR because of the intervention of german imperialists against revolting finnish workers. The revolution was crushed and finland entered a period of statism and right wing support, just like Germany did after its failed communist revolution.

In the eyes of soviet leaders, it was simply another former russian territory that was supposed to be integrated in the USSR, which was to be a communization of the russian empire, denied to them by the imperialist powers of the world. It's for this reason the soviets had little respect for white finland.



yes they did, along with the SS.

this. also there's fondness for old communist governments in former east germany and former yugoslavia most notably.

people in east germany realized the west isn't all it's hyped up to be, and desire a reformed GDR (like they did back when the berlin wall fell. they didn't want the dissolution of the GDR, in fact no referendum on that was even held). people in former yugoslavia admire Tito and desire the unity and prosperity communist yugoslavia brought.

things aren't so black and white.

Then either they were top party officials, or you are sorely mistaken and they just do not want to speak to you about it.

you're fucking kidding me right?

Do you realise how much of a shithole yugoslavia was? Remember the long civil war...? Its better now than it was then.

But hey while we admire murdering dictators, lets admire stalin, boy oh boy what a great guy, murdered millions! boy what fun... and Lenin killing the royal family! must've been fun.

Trotsky its a good thing you live in your university, i hope you never leave it so you don't infest the world with more idiotic dipshits who think they are right, yet don't quite realise how horrible it really was for people.

No they had no need for it later on. I'm sorry but the Germans didn't do much during the Civil war, it was thanks to people who actually understood the horrors of communism and our hero Mannerheim. Yes the Soviets had little respect for Finland, but then again the rest of the world did, so why should I care what a group of lying totalitarian, communist cunts think? Also you didn't read the quote, it said how heroic Finland was, maybe the government didn't believe that, but the guys who were at least a little bit intelligent did.

http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/artikkeli/.../1135251391148 just use google translate or something. But basically its about how The Russian Ministry of Defence says that 'Finland has not learned from WW2' FUCK THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT. Also the Russian ministry of defence says that the Winter War was because Finland was a satellite state of Germany and was told by Germany to refuse Russian treaties. There are two things wrong with that statement. First the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact stated that Finland was to be given to Russia and that it was in the Soviet sphere of influence. Secondly Finland refused because they would only get bullied more and they deserved their independence and would fight for it.

Also the Russian ministry of defence claims "Yet Finnish people and politicians seem to forget the teachings of history. They think that the modern day Russia has nothing do with the SU... Russia is always Russia, no matter what name it has..."

As they say a Russian is always a Russian no matter what. But hey, thats just how my grandparents and parents think because they grew up in that era of bullying by Russia. I think there are good russians, but the Russian government is and will always be an enemy for me.

Could you back up your facts? I'd like to know how many people thought that West Germany wasn't all its hyped up to be. Wasn't it like 3 million Germans who moved to West Germany straight after World War 2 and how many countless people tried to escape to West Berlin. You know why? because they actually wanted some freedom, instead of some secret police watching you every second.

Trotsky its a good thing you live in your university

Then either they were top party officials, or you are sorely mistaken and they just do not want to speak to you about it.

it seems to be impossible for you acknowledge there were plus sides to living in socialism, eh?




you're really god damn stupid. tito made yugoslavia one of the most prosperous countries in europe, united the usually antagonistic and nationalist southern slavs, and actually put workers in power. people in yugoslavia did not have the economic problems of the warsaw pact countries, instead they had access to all kinds of consumer goods, western and eastern. yugoslavia was one of the most frequented places for vacation for people living in the warsaw pact countries

former yugoslavia today cannot even be compared to how it was back then, ask ANY person living now and unless they're some nationalist serb or croat they'll agree. i have a friend in slovenia who knows this first hand

you're making me take you less and less seirously



Any state in the mass internal turmoil the USSR was at the time would have done the same exact thing Stalin did. Other capitalist states have done things in times of unrest that you would expect the puppy kicking communists to do.





you have no idea what you're talking about. you're a finn telling me and people who actually lived in socialist countries what it was like.




The 'horrors of communism' hadn't been 'realized' until the cold war, conveniently. When Finland crushed the revolution with the aid of germany, it wasn't to preserve democracy or whatever the dogma is today, it was preserving capitalism and the integrity of the (contextual) nation, which to the right wing of finland, communism meant the disintegration of.

And yes, the germans did do much. They gave professional aid to the white army that was not distinctly different from the red army. It was a huge advantage




Most of this post has nothing to do with this discussion, just anti-russian rambling. I could honestly care less what the non-aggression pact stated, as it was simply recognizing that the USSR was a communization of the russian empire, due in part of the german policy of appeasement of the soviets so they wouldn't attack germany in the event of the german invasion of poland.




I've never heard of germans moving straight after WW2, though the GDR didn't exist back then, and there was no secret police.

For east german nostalgia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostalgie
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/views/y/...rns.wall.nov8/
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB293/index.htm : On the Anniversary of the Berlin Wall collapsing

Most germans see the GDR with a mixed view. They hated the Stasi and the Berlin wall, which to a statesman, was objectively necessary. But they liked the fact that the GDR's government was responsive to the needs of the population and that it provided many social benefits to let an individual grow. For example, college students in the GDR had access to some of the best education in europe, and were given checks by the east german government to encourage them to live on their own and provide for themself. There were also numerous benefits for having a job that required hard labor, such as mining.

The unrest against the GDR in the late 80's/early 90's was mostly due in part to its slowing economy and unhappiness with the Stasi and the berlin wall. In turn they elected a new government in the GDR which, in retrospect, non-consensually united with west germany.

Anyway, most people who tried to escape to west berlin were skilled laborers, who were offered a higher incentive in west berlin to work for west german companies there. It was part of the western-initiated anti-communist brain drain which was intended to cause instability in the GDR. Indeed, especially in the GDR's beginning, it was the target of internal sabotage and open threats of war from its western counterpart.

From William Blum's Killing Hope, a comprehensive book on reactions of the west against the establishment of socialist countries.

I live in my university?

you know what doesn't work? extremes

Earthen, I love you in a brotherly way. You have dominated Trotsky at every turn, and you have earned my respect. Keep up the good work.