1. Post #3681
    Gold Member
    Panda X's Avatar
    August 2006
    9,802 Posts


    Different background patterns. (Last screenshot didn't have it).
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  2. Post #3682
    P320's Avatar
    September 2011
    957 Posts


    Different background patterns. (Last screenshot didn't have it).
    Still nowhere near as good as yours.
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  3. Post #3683
    Gold Member
    gparent's Avatar
    January 2005
    3,949 Posts
    My comment is purely about the sentence you said (people afraid of change), not the UI itself. I don't know why you're getting so worked up over it.
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  4. Post #3684
    Gold Member
    Panda X's Avatar
    August 2006
    9,802 Posts
    My comment is purely about the sentence you said (people afraid of change), not the UI itself. I don't know why you're getting so worked up over it.
    I wasn't worked up. I was simply making a counter-point.

    It's just I've noticed that people who call themselves technology enthusiasts seem to always hate change.

    Take for example YouTube's UI. Every time it changes, all you here is bitching and complaining for weeks and how the previous layout was perfect, yet when that previous layout came out it was the same thing, bitching for weeks about how it sucks and the previous from that was perfect and so one and so forth.

    It's always whenever some UI of anything changes people will bitch for ages, yet eventually they'll get used to it and their opinion changes. Like the Win3 > Win95 UI. The XP > Vista/7 UI. GNOME 2 > GNOME 3. Etc.
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  5. Post #3685
    P320's Avatar
    September 2011
    957 Posts
    I wasn't worked up. I was simply making a counter-point.

    It's just I've noticed that people who call themselves technology enthusiasts seem to always hate change.

    Take for example YouTube's UI. Every time it changes, all you here is bitching and complaining for weeks and how the previous layout was perfect, yet when that previous layout came out it was the same thing, bitching for weeks about how it sucks and the previous from that was perfect and so one and so forth.

    It's always whenever some UI of anything changes people will bitch for ages, yet eventually they'll get used to it and their opinion changes. Like the Win3 > Win95 UI. The XP > Vista/7 UI. GNOME 2 > GNOME 3. Etc.
    No, people like me keep the gripe about the horrible new changes until workarounds are created to make them more tolerable and easier to deal with. Like Gnome 3. It's not until v3.2.x that it's become something not so annoying to use.
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  6. Post #3686
    Dennab
    November 2010
    4,519 Posts
    No, people like me keep the gripe about the horrible new changes until workarounds are created to make them more tolerable and easier to deal with. Like Gnome 3. It's not until v3.2.x that it's become something not so annoying to use.
    Just what workarounds do you use for Aero?
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  7. Post #3687
    Gold Member
    Panda X's Avatar
    August 2006
    9,802 Posts
    No, people like me keep the gripe about the horrible new changes until workarounds are created to make them more tolerable and easier to deal with. Like Gnome 3. It's not until v3.2.x that it's become something not so annoying to use.
    In most cases it's just the fact that you aren't used to it, and instead of getting used to it you just toss it aside and call it shit.

    People who created heavily used user interfaces usually gather up hundreds if not thousands of people to help change a UI in a more efficient way which would be more usable, it's not just some arbitrary decision based on one person's opinion. It's collaborative. I know Microsoft of all people do this with about every UI change they make, from developers to your average computer user, they watch them interact with the UI, and if they feel it's not working they change it to be better suited.

    The whole start screen thing started from a problem, not a feature. It wasn't intended to be a tablet like interface, it was intended to fix issues with the start menu. Hundreds of programs all in one tiny menu endlessly scrolling about. Solution? Larger start menu, but how large? Well when the user opens the start menu their focus is simply on the start menu, making everything else in the background, so let's use as much space as possible, fullscreen.

    There's more than you think that goes on in UI development. It's not just some bored person in the back who just came up with something and slapped it on and it stuck. Money, heavy research, and more goes into it. The only thing that breaks in the end, is that the user isn't used to it. Which honestly is going to happen, but that doesn't mean the UI itself is shit. It simply means the user has yet to be as efficient with it as they were with the previous UI. It takes a bit to get used to it, but after a while you'll get the hang of it and it'll work for you.

    I know I was skeptical before the dev preview, and said I think it would be shit though I'd have to use it to make an honest opinion, after having used it, and getting used to it, I retract my skepticism and now think it's pretty good. I can do everything as fast as I could before, certainly not right away, but I gave it some time so I could use it to the best of my advantage.
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  8. Post #3688
    P320's Avatar
    September 2011
    957 Posts
    Just what workarounds do you use for Aero?
    None, I like Aero. It's Metro I can't stand. At least MS gives you an option to disable Aero. We're stuck with Metro until Beta, most likely.

    Edited:

    In most cases it's just the fact that you aren't used to it, and instead of getting used to it you just toss it aside and call it shit.

    People who created heavily used user interfaces usually gather up hundreds if not thousands of people to help change a UI in a more efficient way which would be more usable, it's not just some arbitrary decision based on one person's opinion. It's collaborative. I know Microsoft of all people do this with about every UI change they make, from developers to your average computer user, they watch them interact with the UI, and if they feel it's not working they change it to be better suited.

    The whole start screen thing started from a problem, not a feature. It wasn't intended to be a tablet like interface, it was intended to fix issues with the start menu. Hundreds of programs all in one tiny menu endlessly scrolling about. Solution? Larger start menu, but how large? Well when the user opens the start menu their focus is simply on the start menu, making everything else in the background, so let's use as much space as possible, fullscreen.

    There's more than you think that goes on in UI development. It's not just some bored person in the back who just came up with something and slapped it on and it stuck. Money, heavy research, and more goes into it. The only thing that breaks in the end, is that the user isn't used to it. Which honestly is going to happen, but that doesn't mean the UI itself is shit. It simply means the user has yet to be as efficient with it as they were with the previous UI. It takes a bit to get used to it, but after a while you'll get the hang of it and it'll work for you.

    I know I was skeptical before the dev preview, and said I think it would be shit though I'd have to use it to make an honest opinion, after having used it, and getting used to it, I retract my skepticism and now think it's pretty good. I can do everything as fast as I could before, certainly not right away, but I gave it some time so I could use it to the best of my advantage.
    Well we should at least have the option to change things around in the UI to our liking, like the size of the Start screen tiles, grouping like items, custom icons for regular apps (and not all apps I install create a shortcut on the Start screen), and I'd like to see Aero glass as a background option for the Start screen. I'm one person who actually likes the frosted glass look of Windows Vista/7/8.
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  9. Post #3689
    DeadKiller987's Avatar
    September 2010
    1,070 Posts
    I wasn't worked up. I was simply making a counter-point.

    It's just I've noticed that people who call themselves technology enthusiasts seem to always hate change.

    Take for example YouTube's UI. Every time it changes, all you here is bitching and complaining for weeks and how the previous layout was perfect, yet when that previous layout came out it was the same thing, bitching for weeks about how it sucks and the previous from that was perfect and so one and so forth.

    It's always whenever some UI of anything changes people will bitch for ages, yet eventually they'll get used to it and their opinion changes. Like the Win3 > Win95 UI. The XP > Vista/7 UI. GNOME 2 > GNOME 3. Etc.
    I, for one, adore YouTube's beta cosmic panda UI.

    Edited:

    None, I like Aero. It's Metro I can't stand. At least MS gives you an option to disable Aero. We're stuck with Metro until Beta, most likely.

    Edited:



    Well we shoud at least have the option to change things around in the UI to our liking, like the size of the Start screen tiles, grouping like items, custom icons for regular apps (and not all apps I install create a shortcut on the Start screen), and I'd like to see Aero glass as a background option for the Start screen. I'm one person who actually likes the frosted glass look of Windows Vista/7/8.
    But the point of the dev preview is to let developers make apps. Not to show the new UI. It's not supposed to be customizable or disablable in the preview. It's not even supposed to be used by people who aren't devs. Just wait for the damn beta.
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  10. Post #3690
    Gold Member
    Panda X's Avatar
    August 2006
    9,802 Posts
    None, I like Aero. It's Metro I can't stand. At least MS gives you an option to disable Aero. We're stuck with Metro until Beta, most likely.

    Edited:



    Well we shoud at least have the option to change things around in the UI to our liking, like the size of the Start screen tiles, grouping like items, custom icons for regular apps (and not all apps I install create a shortcut on the Start screen), and I'd like to see Aero glass as a background option for the Start screen. I'm one person who actually likes the frosted glass look of Windows Vista/7/8.
    I know for a fact that at least grouping you can do. But not in this alpha build.
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  11. Post #3691
    P320's Avatar
    September 2011
    957 Posts
    I know for a fact that at least grouping you can do. But not in this alpha build.
    I guess I'm just eager to get my hands on the beta to see the new improvements.
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  12. Post #3692
    Diamond Member
    SA Spyder's Avatar
    May 2005
    3,335 Posts
    Being resistant to change isn't the only reason for disliking the new start menu so stop flinging it around. I used Windows 8 exclusively for over a month every day and last week I went back to 7. Why? Not because I dislike change nor because I didn't try it enough, but because, in my opinion, it looks like ass and is stupid to have on a desktop computer. This isn't comparable to XP>Vista transition. It is an overhaul.
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  13. Post #3693
    Dennab
    November 2010
    4,519 Posts
    None, I like Aero. It's Metro I can't stand. At least MS gives you an option to disable Aero. We're stuck with Metro until Beta, most likely.
    Nice one ignoring the group policy settings which revert to aero.
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  14. Post #3694
    Gold Member
    gparent's Avatar
    January 2005
    3,949 Posts
    In most cases it's just the fact that you aren't used to it, and instead of getting used to it you just toss it aside and call it shit.
    The problem is that now developers are using this excuse every time there is a valid design problem. This is what I don't like about your sentence, it is used to blow off people with legit issues.
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  15. Post #3695
    Gold Member
    Panda X's Avatar
    August 2006
    9,802 Posts
    The problem is that now developers are using this excuse every time there is a valid design problem. This is what I don't like about your sentence, it is used to blow off people with legit issues.
    Microsoft pours money into UI research and development, it's not like they're making whatever works for them and just ships it. They go a tad over the top too, monitor eye movement, user responsiveness, and whether how the user feels, like being frustrated or comfortable, using all sorts of devices to measure that along with word of mouth. It's not even final, if there are problems, the many people who test the UI whether it'll be developers or general users will make it clear and it'll change. They already changed the "All Programs" equivalent based on comments on the blog post alone. If you feel that there's some flaw in the UI that needs to be fixed, let them know. But just complaining on some internet forum isn't going to change anything.

    I can't speak about other developers though.
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  16. Post #3696
    P320's Avatar
    September 2011
    957 Posts
    Microsoft pours money into UI research and development, it's not like they're making whatever works for them and just ships it. They go a tad over the top too, monitor eye movement, user responsiveness, and whether how the user feels, like being frustrated or comfortable, using all sorts of devices to measure that along with word of mouth. It's not even final, if there are problems, the many people who test the UI whether it'll be developers or general users will make it clear and it'll change. They already changed the "All Programs" equivalent based on comments on the blog post alone. If you feel that there's some flaw in the UI that needs to be fixed, let them know. But just complaining on some internet forum isn't going to change anything.

    I can't speak about other developers though.
    Do you have an official link to comment and/or file issues with Win 8 Dev Preview?
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  17. Post #3697
    I once worked at a sperm bank, the food was terrible
    The Baconator's Avatar
    April 2011
    9,159 Posts
    But who wants to switch between Desktop and Metro mode? I mean Metro can't replace Desktop yet, and even in the videos showing it off, they go to desktop mode. Two modes is dumb.
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  18. Post #3698
    Gold Member
    Jimmy422's Avatar
    March 2007
    1,737 Posts
    It's the damn start menu, not a complete shell replacement (Unless you want it to be, which most people seem to have it stuck in their minds that it is). You aren't forced to use it for your main UI. If you want to go to the traditional desktop then click the button that says desktop or enable the policy that starts your computer at the desktop instead of the start screen.

    I don't understand why people hate this so much - anything that the old start menu didn't take up was just wasted space. Now it's using the whole screen - giving you 90% more room for your programs, apps, etc. In my opinion, that's a huge improvement over the ~300px you were limited to before.

    And as Panda has said, they're not even close to finished. The Windows team is in the process of replacing the desktop aero elements with a hybrid of aero and metro so it looks proper.



    I mean, come on, how can you not like that? It's simple. Some of you should go watch the BUILD videos on the whole concept of metro - showing you only what you need, not some gimmicky shiny 512x512 glossy icons everywhere.
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  19. Post #3699
    Gold Member
    Panda X's Avatar
    August 2006
    9,802 Posts
    But who wants to switch between Desktop and Metro mode? I mean Metro can't replace Desktop yet, and even in the videos showing it off, they go to desktop mode. Two modes is dumb.
    Yeah switching back and forth wouldn't be great, however if you use it simply as a start menu, rather than the app platform it's about the same. WinKey, open desktop app. Which makes 3 ways you can use Windows now. All metro, all desktop, all desktop with metro start menu. It'll probably be number 3 for a long time due to application porting time or if you use some application quite frequently that'll never update for one reason or another.

    Edited:



    I mean, come on, how can you not like that? It's simple. Some of you should go watch the BUILD videos on the whole concept of metro - showing you only what you need, not some gimmicky shiny 512x512 glossy icons everywhere.
    I find it odd that it seems most of the Metro stuff is in Server, or at least currently. Maybe the MMC looks like that in later W8 Client builds, but I can't remember if server manager used MMC or not.
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  20. Post #3700
    Gold Member
    gparent's Avatar
    January 2005
    3,949 Posts
    Microsoft pours money into UI research and development, it's not like they're making whatever works for them and just ships it. They go a tad over the top too, monitor eye movement, user responsiveness, and whether how the user feels, like being frustrated or comfortable, using all sorts of devices to measure that along with word of mouth.
    All that matters is the end result, doesn't matter if they "proved" something is better if the end users don't actually like it.
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  21. Post #3701

    July 2011
    100 Posts
    All that matters is the end result, doesn't matter if they "proved" something is better if the end users don't actually like it.
    It would help if you didn't extrapolate your own opinion/experiences to the majority of the end users.
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  22. Post #3702
    Gold Member
    GoDong-DK's Avatar
    November 2009
    14,648 Posts
    All that matters is the end result, doesn't matter if they "proved" something is better if the end users don't actually like it.
    Well, if we can say that it's better in a pretty objective way, it's really just a matter of getting used to. Of course their data could be wrong, but really, I'm not missing the old start menu.
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  23. Post #3703
    Gold Member
    Panda X's Avatar
    August 2006
    9,802 Posts
    All that matters is the end result, doesn't matter if they "proved" something is better if the end users don't actually like it.
    What happens if after a while they like it? I remember people bitching constantly about Vista/7's UI compared to XP's and now it's turned. I remember people bitching about Win9x's new desktop compared to Win3's. Or Mac x to Mac y, Or this to that. It seems odd that within 5 seconds you shun it and refuse to ever use it. You can't really have an end result before it itself is even finished.
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  24. Post #3704
    Gold Member
    gparent's Avatar
    January 2005
    3,949 Posts
    It would help if you didn't extrapolate your own opinion/experiences to the majority of the end users.
    I'm not extrapolating anything at the moment, so I guess I got that handled.
    Well, if we can say that it's better in a pretty objective way, it's really just a matter of getting used to. Of course their data could be wrong, but really, I'm not missing the old start menu.
    Well yes, but again a lot of this is also opinion and that can vary between users. Remember that you don't use your machine exactly like everyone else. I could "objectively" demonstrate that the new Network Connections menu nesting deal is awful, but a regular user would not even notice. I still use Windows 7 because there a tiny few features that are worth it, but to me the settings UI feels like a regression and it's definitely not because I'm "afraid of change" (lol).
    What happens if after a while they like it? I remember people bitching constantly about Vista/7's UI compared to XP's and now it's turned. I remember people bitching about Win9x's new desktop compared to Win3's. Or Mac x to Mac y, Or this to that. It seems odd that within 5 seconds you shun it and refuse to ever use it. You can't really have an end result before it itself is even finished.
    Then we're obviously no longer talking about having an actual reason for hating the product and thus are in a different conversation that is not relevant.
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  25. Post #3705
    Gold Member
    GoDong-DK's Avatar
    November 2009
    14,648 Posts
    I'm not extrapolating anything at the moment, so I guess I got that handled.

    Well yes, but again a lot of this is also opinion and that can vary between users. Remember that you don't use your machine exactly like everyone else. I could "objectively" demonstrate that the new Network Connections menu nesting deal is awful, but a regular user would not even notice. I still use Windows 7 because there a tiny few features that are worth it, but to me the settings UI feels like a regression and it's definitely not because I'm "afraid of change" (lol).

    Then we're obviously no longer talking about having an actual reason for hating the product and thus are in a different conversation that is not relevant.
    How? I'm not saying you're not right, and I really do not have an opinion on the matter, but how are you going to prove it? Have you collected buttloads of data from a large share of windows users?
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  26. Post #3706
    I once worked at a sperm bank, the food was terrible
    The Baconator's Avatar
    April 2011
    9,159 Posts
    I, for one, adore YouTube's beta cosmic panda UI.
    Is it the standard UI now? I have been using it since it came out, love it except for the fact that finding profile comments is a bitch.

    Edited:

    What happens if after a while they like it? I remember people bitching constantly about Vista/7's UI compared to XP's and now it's turned. I remember people bitching about Win9x's new desktop compared to Win3's. Or Mac x to Mac y, Or this to that. It seems odd that within 5 seconds you shun it and refuse to ever use it. You can't really have an end result before it itself is even finished.
    Not really, only a minute amount of people disliked it, most orgasmed at it's site. Even the haters' only reason was "MY RAMMMM!!!!1 DURH"

    But Metro, if MS intends for us to use it over the desktop, is a straight downgrade for power users.
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  27. Post #3707

    September 2010
    458 Posts
    I'm really excited for Visual Studio 2012
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  28. Post #3708
    Gold Member
    Panda X's Avatar
    August 2006
    9,802 Posts
    But Metro, if MS intends for us to use it over the desktop, is a straight downgrade for power users.
    How exactly is it a downgrade for power users? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious how.
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  29. Post #3709
    I once worked at a sperm bank, the food was terrible
    The Baconator's Avatar
    April 2011
    9,159 Posts
    How exactly is it a downgrade for power users? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious how.
    The desktop is more versatile, I liked my Zune HD and all but metro is only good for the few metro apps that support it, but I love me my desktop for screen management.
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  30. Post #3710
    Resident dragon enthusiast.
    Dennab
    September 2010
    10,153 Posts
    I'm really excited for Visual Studio 2012
    People will still make programs that require VS 2005 installed.
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  31. Post #3711
    Dennab
    November 2010
    4,519 Posts
    The desktop is more versatile, I liked my Zune HD and all but metro is only good for the few metro apps that support it, but I love me my desktop for screen management.
    The conventional desktop is better for simultanious multitasking and the delivery of massive amounts of information to the user at once. Metro is for at a glance info on portable devices, it just isn't suitable.
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  32. Post #3712
    Gold Member
    gparent's Avatar
    January 2005
    3,949 Posts
    How? I'm not saying you're not right, and I really do not have an opinion on the matter, but how are you going to prove it? Have you collected buttloads of data from a large share of windows users?
    Why are you guys acting like buttloads of data can prove things just because it comes from MS? Come on, they're the same people who wrote Vista, surely they are capable of making big mistakes.

    There's a good chance that none of your precious Windows users are ever going to use the network settings in a way that requires the UI to be effective. However, I can tell you that action X is taking N+Y clicks instead of N, and that you have a regression due to it, and it would be fact.

    Trust me, I have plenty of experience with the networking features of Windows and am capable of using them. And it's not because I'm a fucking retard who can't deal with change.
    People will still make programs that require VS 2005 installed.
    No they won't. No program I've ever used required Visual Studio to be installed.
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  33. Post #3713
    woolio1's Avatar
    November 2009
    9,273 Posts
    The desktop is more versatile, I liked my Zune HD and all but metro is only good for the few metro apps that support it, but I love me my desktop for screen management.
    "Few metro apps that support it"

    Just a little reality check here, you do realize this is a development preview and the App Market isn't even open yet? Wait for the official launch before you say there aren't any apps.

    The last thing I want here is ignorance. It doesn't make us look good. We can't continue to make completely baseless statements simply because we disagree with something. I urge you, my fellow forumers, to evaluate your statements for truth before posting.

    FOR CLARIFICATION: I, personally, am not a fan of metro in it's current incarnation. That doesn't mean it's bad, doesn't mean it should be removed. I'm just not a fan of it. Some people like it. I'll acknowledge that. Myself, I'll wait until launch to fully evaluate it. We simply don't have enough experience with it to judge it yet, and we won't until they unlock ALL the features.
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  34. Post #3714
    Gold Member
    Panda X's Avatar
    August 2006
    9,802 Posts
    The desktop is more versatile, I liked my Zune HD and all but metro is only good for the few metro apps that support it, but I love me my desktop for screen management.
    Ok so you're speaking about the start screen as a replacement for the desktop, what about just as a replacement of the start menu?
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  35. Post #3715
    Gold Member
    GoDong-DK's Avatar
    November 2009
    14,648 Posts
    Why are you guys acting like buttloads of data can prove things just because it comes from MS? Come on, they're the same people who wrote Vista, surely they are capable of making big mistakes.

    There's a good chance that none of your precious Windows users are ever going to use the network settings in a way that requires the UI to be effective. However, I can tell you that action X is taking N+Y clicks instead of N, and that you have a regression due to it, and it would be fact.

    Trust me, I have plenty of experience with the networking features of Windows and am capable of using them. And it's not because I'm a fucking retard who can't deal with change.

    No they won't. No program I've ever used required Visual Studio to be installed.
    I'm not talking about the network settings, it's completely irrelevant to my point. My point is that there's a lot of research behind this decision, and you can't really compare it to Vista, the UI wasn't the thing people complained most about. Did you read the blog posts? I can see what they're getting at, and I honestly don't mind it. I use Windows 8 all the time on my laptop, the reason why it's not on my desktop all the is that I can't be arsed with file shit that comes with dual booting.
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  36. Post #3716
    Gold Member
    Panda X's Avatar
    August 2006
    9,802 Posts
    No they won't. No program I've ever used required Visual Studio to be installed.
    I think he means VC++ 2005 Redist.

    Edited:

    Microsoft says that the Windows Store will include automatic updating for Metro style apps. However, no automatic updating will occur for other 3rd party applications. Microsoft says enabling this would lead to potential mistrust of Windows Update by users.

    Balls.
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  37. Post #3717
    Gold Member
    Lazor's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,254 Posts
    I think he means VC++ 2005 Redist.

    Edited:

    Microsoft says that the Windows Store will include automatic updating for Metro style apps. However, no automatic updating will occur for other 3rd party applications. Microsoft says enabling this would lead to potential mistrust of Windows Update by users.

    Balls.
    oh come on microsoft get with the times already
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  38. Post #3718
    P320's Avatar
    September 2011
    957 Posts
    VC++ 2005 Redist needs to be added to the OS by default, same with the latest DirectX redistributable and the latest .Net and Silverlight. It's not like those things are too large to fit on the DVD.
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  39. Post #3719
    Gold Member
    Panda X's Avatar
    August 2006
    9,802 Posts
    VC++ 2005 Redist needs to be added to the OS by default, same with the latest DirectX redistributable and the latest .Net and Silverlight. It's not like those things are too large to fit on the DVD.
    Sounds useful, though still more bloat in Windows. Though the latest .NET has been in Windows ever since XP.
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  40. Post #3720
    P320's Avatar
    September 2011
    957 Posts
    Sounds useful, though still more bloat in Windows. Though the latest .NET has been in Windows ever since XP.
    Yeah, I love that. :3
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