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Post #41
Often times people purport that a tendency to commit suicide is indicative of mental illness.
While people who do commit suicide might statistically have had a greater degree of mental instability than others, I feel that any tendency to end one's life is due more to the unbearable circumstances that they might be in, coupled with an utter feeling of hopelessness. The type of factors that might have lead to such a negative outlook on life may indeed have been spawned from previous mental illnesses that they could've had in the past, but such a desire to no longer live a life they deem is unnecessary and painful is not, in itself, a 'mental illness.'
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Yes, it's a situation in which people need help. But, IT IS THEIR CHOICE. You can shout and whine all you fucking want, but it's their choice and that should never be anything BUT their choice. So what if it encourages it, people who want to will and people who don't won't, but you'll say you know well enough whether they should live?
You've never been depressed and you've never struggled with suicide. Personally, I'm glad I failed suicide each time I attempted it, but at the time, there was no fix and nothing got better. Things still haven't really gotten better, but I'm still here. Taking away that choice from people who want it is just demoralizing and stupid. You'll treat them like children doing that. People who are depressed enough to be in that mind set have their own choices to make. You don't get to make that choice for them.
It seems FP is full of "liberals"(i fucking hate using this term) who are fine and dandy with invasion of other peoples choices when that's the exact opposite of what it's meant to be about.
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People should have morphological freedom, and any other freedom, regardless if you or I or anyone else agrees with what they do with it.
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"We should allow child labor overseas ...the sweatshop is what is saving the 9 year old worker"
April 2007
6,864 Posts
Even granted that were true, none of that would matter as there would only be two moral cases for preventing suicide by means of force.
One is where force is being used against you, as it is just to aggress against an agressor. In the case of suicide, this claim cannot inherently be made.
The second case is where it would be immoral for someone to commit suicide due to property rights, because they were not the full owners of their body. If you accept this notion, then by virtue of logic you also accept a form of slavery and the question becomes "how much of your body do you own?". Why wouldn't the slave owner want their slaves committing suicide? Why wouldn't the government?
I certainly object to suicide, but I find the laws against it to be more obscene as any law limiting the power of someone to take their life must first claim authority/ownership of such life.
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Few weeks or days? It effects family and friends for the rest of their lives.
Your argument works both ways; because the person committing suicide can't handle "being sad" for a few "weeks or days" they should just kill themselves?
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We occur in nature, our thoughts occur in us, suicide is a thought, suicide is natural. Absolutely nothing is unnatural and it's time to stop using that as an argument for anything.
And "it's their choice" isn't half as stupid as "it's somebody else's choice".
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How can suicide be illegal? If someone does it, most likely they will die, can't charge the dead.
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Grief and depression are totally different. The DSM-IV makes the distinction by saying grief lasts up to 2 months, anything longer is major depression. The symptoms are opposite in many ways, as well.
http://depression.about.com/od/grief...depression.htm
So your comparison is fundamentally flawed.
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Permanent solution, temporary problem.
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Cliche posted, adds nothing.
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Suicide is only justifiable when you are going to die soon anyway. Take Hitler, he knew he was dead anyways so he saved them time and offed himself first.
While depression will take a huge toll on someone, it doesn't mean the person can one day pull through and be happy again.
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Being truly in control of your mental state is easy once you know how, and it takes a lot of hard work andsheer effort to attain, which most people aren't willing to give.
I think until you've hit the bottom of the barrel and had a truly bad experience, you don't realise that there's more to life than surface/decoration.
Suicide is a tough call, whilst I'd say that it's their choice at the end of the day, everything CAN get better, and change begins within.
I enjoy helping people with inner issues get back on track with their lives and start attaining mental superiority, so here's 4 words that I guarantee will speak volumes to you, if you realise the absolute 100% truth behind them:-
'This Moment Will Pass'.
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Sometimes i wonder why people suicide. Is it just because they are depressed that they can actually do it?
I know someone who has nothing but bad luck, had a shit childhood and a dying mother, and yet he keeps saying noone should suicide.
But on the other hand there's the 12 year old people that hang themselves in their closet.
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"Soon" is relative
Edited:
People kill themselves when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain.
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I've told a friend that no matter how shit it might be now, some day it will be better. And he thanked me after that.
If you live by that, i don't think you will suicide.
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Tell that to someone who has chronic pain or is schizophrenic or was molested by their uncle for years as a kid or any other number of horrible things that can happen to a person. Choosing to live by that isn't necessarily something people can just do overnight.
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You're right.
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I don't really care if people actually suicide. If they want to, go ahead.
But if people keep saying "I WILL KILL MYSELF :(((" just to get attention, then they really should do it.
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As zeke already pointed out, being sad over the loss of a family member and being ACTUALLY depressed(have you ever been actually depressed? Not just "oh, I'm sad today"? Then please, don't talk like you understand it.) are two completely different worlds.
If a person can't handle being "sad" for a few days, and kills themselves, that's pretty stupid. But if a person has long term depression and kills themselves, that's a different issue.
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But you don't know. If you're depressed, life already looks grim, and it's already hard to get out of the bed in the morning. This isn't lazyness, and no one who's never had depression before can even begin to understand what it really feels like to be depressed, what reason do you have to believe life will get better? What if you go through life just believing naively that the next day will some how be better? You haven't been depressed so you won't know how fucking terrible that sounds to someone who is.
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My friend was raped. 3 times, same night. She killed herself a year later. That moment NEVER passed for her.
That's horseshit and insults the memories of my dead friend.
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But that's not always how life works. Life isn't filled with sunshine and rainbows for all people so why should all people live by the same stupid rule?
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Avatar fits
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I joke about suicide because I can't take it seriously with 3 dead friends all because of suicide and multiple attempts under my own belt.
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I felt like a piece of shit and I was going to do it but I am a coward and always backed away right when I was going to end it.
I'm glad im a coward, life has gotten so much better. If someone truly has had a terrible existence and there is REALLY no hope then I dont care, but I would rather have someone that does have hope stay and pull through terrible times because life does get better. You just dont see the hope during those times due to the pain.
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I highly doubt that ever actually happens.
People on facepunch always says it does to marginalize depression but I'd like to see someone actually cite a case where it happened.
Calling you out, FP
Edited:
Facepunch of 2008 was annoyingly nihilist, the attitude back then would have been "yeah if someone wants to die let them, less people around, we're overpopulated anyway blah blah"
can't believe I miss those days
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The person who takes his/her own life is usually not the only one affected by it.
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Also applicable to getting drunk or smoking
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Friends and family don't mourn all their lives because one got drunk.
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Who would take their live, and why? Can you come up with any normal reasons?
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If they don't want to live anymore.
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Obviously, but should that be considered a normal statement?
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so basically, "Just let them kill themselves"? Doesn't that sound insanely irresponsible and childishly stupid in itself? What are you going to do when you see a guy on a building asking for your help? Say "Oh, your choice" and walk off?
You don't just "Let people kill themselves" just because their depressed, it IS a state of mental instability, just saying "Its their choice" DOES encourage them to kill themselves and it hurts EVERYONE around them. Obviously when you tried killing yourself you didn't even realize that it'll harm everyone around you.
If you loved someone, and they were being picked on and wanted to kill themselves, you don't just "let them do it". It seems FP is full of people who are white knights towards other peoples choices and preach "100%, absolute tolerance", to an intolerably idiotic level. Letting someone understand that suicide is just a permanent fix to a very possibly temporary solution and edging them out of a state of mental instability and rehabilitating the issue is probably the best way to go. You guys preach about how the death penalty should be banned because murderers can be rehabilitated, and then you turn around and say "but just let people commit suicide" as if they're unfixable and broke and if they kill themselves then well, OH WELL, IT WAS THEIR CHOICE.
There are some good reasons to kill yourself, then there are smaller reasons that are very easily fixable and you can grow out of. Some reasons are scarring for you and terrible, but if people actually support you, then you should be able to cope with it rather than scarring them for life. Simply saying "Its your choice", like I said, doesn't help anyone.
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I bet the members of FP that said "Its their choice" would shit themselves and try and take a dive if someone they loved was about to jump off a building. you guys are such hypocrites.
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Considering joking about suicide would insult the memories of your dead friend, why? You make it sound as if your just using that for argument-ammo.
People who go through it and get over it know that its a useless option and don't just say "Its their choice". saying "Its your choice" is practically opposing the person from having a choice at all, like they're worthless and alone in the world, and if they saw any pressure AGAINST it, they would normally decide against it. They're in such a state that they feel that its the only way. If you actually tried killing yourself, you'd know that. But no, your a white knight that preaches "its their choice" and says "You've never been depressed and you've never struggled with suicide." when you don't even fucking know me. Don't tell people that they haven't been through something as if you have some hidden knowledge, it makes it look like your just using that to look like you actually went through something.
and honestly, "Multiple failures", obviously, you had to have realized something afterwards, or have been STOPPED. you would've been in the state of hopelessness and loneliness to have even decided that in the first place. Telling someone thats about to kill themselves helps them understand that they aren't alone in the world. I've actually talked two people out of suicide by now, one of them I've even talked out of murder. They wanted to kill themselves because of one person making their life bad, and one wanted to kill that person. They felt alone, hopeless, and depressed all around, like it was the only way. By going "its your choice" they'd have killed themselves, it would be irresponsible, and irrationally stupid to tell them that.
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http://www.stopasuicide.org/suicide.aspx
http://www.nmha.org/go/suicide
http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_suicide.php
"Studies have shown that over 90% of people who die from suicide have one or more psychiatric disorders at the time of their death. Luckily, there are ways to treat and control these disorders and potentially prevent suicide."
And your telling them "Its their choice". They don't even realize what they are actually DOING. A psychotic disorder is where you can't see consequence, or reason at all.
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except its a perfectly valid point.
Its a permanent solution to a temporary problem. It's like scrapping a computer completely when theres still good parts, just because one part died, instead of actually fixing it.
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I know people that have been through war and a lot worse you know. He had his identity stolen more than once, he can't even leave the country because of that, he lives with crippled legs in a wheel chair with asshole room mates, but does he kill himself? No, thats stupid. Obviously its not an overnight thing to fix, but just killing yourself doesn't fix it at all, not only that, but it scars everyone around that suicide.
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"We should allow child labor overseas ...the sweatshop is what is saving the 9 year old worker"
April 2007
6,864 Posts
Other people being affected by a decision does not at all imply they have a right to interfere by force in that decision. If you accept this logic, then any intervention by force when someone is affected by a decision is acceptable, no matter the circumstance. It is not as though that there is something particularly binding within the logic that it constricts it to suicide, and just saying there is doesn't do anything.
Again, to bring it back to my two main arguments. A person owns their body. Using force against them to stop them form committing suicide would be immoral. The use of force is only acceptable when force is used against you. The only other condition that this argument could work out if you were to claim that a person did not fully own their body and therefore did not have full right to commit to such actions.
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Except the part where they're in a state where they see it as the only way out and are mentally unstable. Saying "Your choice" is like saying "I don't care" in that insane state of mind, making them think they're completely alone in the world.
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Except you'd be telling them "I don't care, your choice"
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He said intervention by force, offering help and advice to someone who is suicidal is a no-brainer, but actually preventing them if they are dead set on it would be immoral.
Edited:
That pun was an accident.
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sorry
debates get me pumped up
and force, sometimes I feel its needed. Failing to ease someone out of suicide with reason and advice is insanely scaring.
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I see it as perfectly reasonable if a friend or familymember keeps you away from suicide by force.
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Why would someone have a right to kill themselves? It's like, the right to end all rights and obligations - it doesn't make much sense in my opinion.
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Why wouldn't you after all?
No way I'm letting a family member commit suicide, I /WILL/ stop them if I must, and I /WILL/ help them the rest of the way.
Just letting a family member do it seems irresponsible.
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I should have a right to kill myself for the same reason I should have the right to turn down medical treatment or get cosmetic surgery, I own my body, no one else has a claim on any part of it.
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another example of FP White knights going "its their body"
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they could either kill themselves "because its their body" or you could actually stop them and help them
if tons of help doesn't work, then I suppose it could be the only way, if they're truly in inescapable pain, and theres no help, no matter what force and pressure you apply, then maybe.
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The only time you would make a decision to kill yourself is if you were suffering from a mental disorder or unstability. Second of all, turning down medical treatment is different because when you kill yourself you violate all obligations you have as a human being aswell as all rights in a way aswell, you don't really do that when turning down medical treatment.
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Those phrases I used were quoted as I was making a point (I don't actually think it lasts for a few days or weeks). Do you think that family and friends won't suffer grief or depression either?
