1. Post #81
    Gold Member
    Dr Magnusson's Avatar
    July 2008
    2,694 Posts
    QM isn't entirely random, the probability of an event happening is a well-defined probability distribution. I think.
    This is pretty much what I wanted to say after reading this thread. Lightning strikes were probably thought to be random, or perhaps determined by some kind of supernatural entity. Now we know that it's merely the discharge of an electricity build-up in the clouds, which is very measurable and non-random.

    What I'm saying is that everything appears random until it doesn't.

  2. Post #82
    NATURALLY WIRED TO HAVE SEX WITH KIDS
    Rubs10's Avatar
    June 2007
    8,785 Posts
    physics causes your destiny. you can't modify physics. if the dominoes before the last one fell, the last one is likely to fall as well. if the last one doesn't fall, that was never it's destiny.

    I'm saying that there is "fate" as long as a third party doesn't modify anything. Even a slight offset might lead to a chain of events, changing the final outcome.
    Now since we don't have free will, people's brains will always work the exact same way, so it will always lead to the same conclusion.
    again, unless a third party, which is impossible as of now, changes something
    There's an establish definition for fate(destiny) and you can't change it just because you think it means something else. You're talking about causal determinism, so use the correct word and stop calling it fate.

    Maybe you are missing the point? Seeing how you think human decision making could be just as predictable as a rock moving through space..
    A brain would be more complex, but it's still subject to the laws of nature and if you know all of the inputs and preexisting conditions, the outcome can be predicted, just like a rock. The brain and our consciousness is nothing more than cause and effect. There is no mystical "choice" involved, there are merely chemical and electrical interactions.

  3. Post #83
    Dark RaveN's Avatar
    September 2010
    3,206 Posts
    There is no scientific reason to believe that our brains are capable of actually making something from nothing. The closest we come is quantum physics, and that's completely random.
    So, having a free will allows you to create shit from space? What the fuck.

  4. Post #84
    Gold Member
    carcarcargo's Avatar
    October 2007
    15,061 Posts
    There's an establish definition for fate(destiny) and you can't change it just because you think it means something else. You're talking about causal determinism, so use the correct word and stop calling it fate.



    A brain would be more complex, but it's still subject to the laws of nature and if you know all of the inputs and preexisting conditions, the outcome can be predicted, just like a rock. The brain and our consciousness is nothing more than cause and effect. There is no mystical "choice" involved, there are merely chemical interactions.
    Don't forget electrical interaction.

  5. Post #85
    Maybe you are missing the point? Seeing how you think human decision making could be just as predictable as a rock moving through space..
    Pardon my rudeness but I think you may be a little out of your depth here.

  6. Post #86
    Gold Member
    sgman91's Avatar
    July 2006
    4,144 Posts
    Religion would be the only reason to think people have free will. From a non religious viewpoint arguing for free will would be comparable to arguing for God. (absolutely no reason to believe that it exists)

  7. Post #87
    Chezhead's Avatar
    December 2009
    7,264 Posts
    I'm not sure what the definition for "Free Will" is. If it's being able to choose what we do, we all have it. We can choose to kill someone, you can kill yourself, you can choose to say something at any time.

    I'm not sure what any other definitions would be.

  8. Post #88
    Bat-shit's Avatar
    October 2010
    12,794 Posts
    Pardon my rudeness but I think you may be a little out of your depth here.
    No.. you're right.



    I'm not sure what the definition for "Free Will" is. If it's being able to choose what we do, we all have it. We can choose to kill someone, you can kill yourself, you can choose to say something at any time.

    I'm not sure what any other definitions would be.
    Yeah basically my thoughts too, but apparently "Free Will" isn't about that, not that simple at least.

  9. Post #89
    Gold Member
    Robbobin's Avatar
    June 2007
    8,041 Posts
    If your definition of free will is having the capacity to make decisions, we have it. The other position is that because the physical process occurring in our brains is ultimately rigid and deterministic (if it is; something impossible to demonstrate analytically) , our freedom of will is constrained because there is still always only one possible outcome for the universe.

    Personally I'm of the opinion that we can easily understand free will just to mean having the capacity to make decisions; I don't think we necessarily need any sort of transcendental notion for us to be free in as much as we are a single entity. It's a constrained sort of free will, not comparable to a Christian conception, for example, easily reconcilable.

    Edited:

    People who are arguing against free will are just extending their view of the universe as a deterministic entity that only has one possible outcome to saying that because our input is ultimately predetermined, we have no free will.

    I disagree with this charge, because in as much as I am a physical body in the universe, my actions have implications on the outcome of the universe. I make decisions, and in some sense of the word I have the capacity to do X or not X. Just because we're built out of predictable atoms it doesn't undermine the fact we do make decisions.

  10. Post #90
    If your definition of free will is having the capacity to make decisions, we have it. The other position is that because the physical process occurring in our brains is ultimately rigid and deterministic (if it is; something impossible to demonstrate analytically) , our freedom of will is constrained because there is still always only one possible outcome for the universe.

    Personally I'm of the opinion that we can easily understand free will just to mean having the capacity to make decisions; I don't think we necessarily need any sort of transcendental notion for us to be free in as much as we are a single entity. It's a constrained sort of free will, not comparable to a Christian conception, for example, easily reconcilable.

    Edited:

    People who are arguing against free will are just extending their view of the universe as a deterministic entity that only has one possible outcome to saying that because our input is ultimately predetermined, we have no free will.

    I disagree with this charge, because in as much as I am a physical body in the universe, my actions have implications on the outcome of the universe. I make decisions, and in some sense of the word I have the capacity to do X or not X. Just because we're built out of predictable atoms it doesn't undermine the fact we do make decisions.
    I disagree, because the way our decisions are made are determined by physical law. We may feel like we have the capacity to do X or not X, but we don't really. It's like saying a machine has the capacity to do the thing that it's going to do or not the thing that it's going to do. It's an inane point because sure I can imagine a world in which something different may have happened, but the rules of this one exactly determined the outcome from the beginning. Even though we may have had what we feel like is choice, what we were going to choose is not actually free, so the idea that we sift through possible actions and "choose" a certain one is irrelevant. It's just what the brain does in order to perform its function. Our mind's consideration of its possible options is no different than pushing buttons on some piece of machinery. It's just stimulus, and it all adds up to a given response according to some set of rules, but few people would say the machine chose what to do.

    Edited:

    I understand the claim that free will can be considered just the capacity of the brain for decision making, but I consider that to be a sort of abuse of language, and brings up the problem of at what level of complexity a mind develops what we would call will.

  11. Post #91
    Gold Member
    Robbobin's Avatar
    June 2007
    8,041 Posts
    I disagree, because the way our decisions are made are determined by physical law. We may feel like we have the capacity to do X or not X, but we don't really. It's like saying a machine has the capacity to do the thing that it's going to do or not the thing that it's going to do. It's an inane point because sure I can imagine a world in which something different may have happened, but the rules of this one exactly determined the outcome from the beginning. Even though we may have had what we feel like is choice, what we were going to choose is not actually free, so the idea that we sift through possible actions and "choose" a certain one is irrelevant. It's just what the brain does in order to perform its function. Our mind's consideration of its possible options is no different than pushing buttons on some piece of machinery. It's just stimulus, and it all adds up to a given response according to some set of rules, but few people would say the machine chose what to do.

    Edited:

    I understand the claim that free will can be considered just the capacity of the brain for decision making, but I consider that to be a sort of abuse of language, and brings up the problem of at what level of complexity a mind develops what we would call will.
    Yeah, I totally see what you're saying. I think it goes both ways though; saying we don't have free will could just as easily be called an abuse of language. I think it's more of an attitude thing. I've been reading a lot of existentialism lately and free will (in the scientific, capacity-to-make-decisions sense) is such a huge part of it, hence I'm leaning more to that side.

    I'd never say we have free will without explaining exactly what I think it can realistically entail; that's for sure.

  12. Post #92
    SomeRandomGuy16's Avatar
    August 2011
    939 Posts
    We can do as we will, but we cannot will as we please.

  13. Post #93
    Japanese Cerberus
    Dennab
    August 2011
    8,076 Posts
    Since most people here are discussing this from a non-religious perspective, I'm debating whether I should really post my actual opinion. Oh, what the hell.

    I believe there is a free will. Mainly because of religious bias, but even if there isn't free will, it's not going to change anything thinking about it.

  14. Post #94
    Gold Member
    sp00ks's Avatar
    January 2008
    12,058 Posts
    Since most people here are discussing this from a non-religious perspective, I'm debating whether I should really post my actual opinion. Oh, what the hell.

    I believe there is a free will. Mainly because of religious bias, but even if there isn't free will, it's not going to change anything thinking about it.
    it's not like we have a choice.

    I agree with you, posting your opinion is pretty pointless since your argument is basically "we have free will because magic"

  15. Post #95
    I'm a tool
    KillerLUA's Avatar
    June 2009
    1,368 Posts
    I believe don't really have that much free will, we are shaped by the people around us, who are shaped by the environment we are in. The loop means that even a single change in the area, environment or things we've been through becomes reshaped and moulded as it get's passed on from person to person. The further you get away from the location where it started, the more complex the result is. Imagine thousands of these 'ripples' happening every day.

    That's free will, free will comes from our decision to react with our environment, and the people who shape you most.

  16. Post #96
    Gold Member
    Eltro102's Avatar
    February 2008
    10,986 Posts
    even if we do not have free will it does not matter as we are obviously unable to discern between having and not having free will, and so it doesnt matter to us because, simply, we are too dumb to tell the difference

  17. Post #97
    Dennab
    September 2009
    1,147 Posts
    If we don't have free will, we have a fate.
    Technically we don't have free will

    Edited:

    let me put it this way. let's say one day, we create a supercomputer which could simulate earth and its history with 100% accuracy. so if decide to watch hitler from his birth to his death he'd do everything the same no matter how many times we run the simulation.

    and than we change something. we show hitler his future. his actions would change, changing his fate.

    we can't change our fate unless something impossible happens.
    it says the same due to it being like a video

  18. Post #98
    gra

    August 2011
    276 Posts
    even if we do not have free will it does not matter as we are obviously unable to discern between having and not having free will, and so it doesnt matter to us because, simply, we are too dumb to tell the difference
    Nice cop out

  19. Post #99
    Gold Member
    Eltro102's Avatar
    February 2008
    10,986 Posts
    Nice cop out
    what? atleast try to make an argument rather than just going hurr you disagree with me

  20. Post #100
    gra

    August 2011
    276 Posts
    what? atleast try to make an argument rather than just going hurr you disagree with me
    You copped out because you said that this argument doesn't matter to us. That's not the point of this argument and maybe somehow, through quantum physics or something, it theoretically could be important.

  21. Post #101
    Gold Member
    Robbobin's Avatar
    June 2007
    8,041 Posts
    You copped out because you said that this argument doesn't matter to us. That's not the point of this argument and maybe somehow, through quantum physics or something, it theoretically could be important.
    I don't think his point is totally irrelevant. From our perspective we'll always feel a sense of freedom in our actions. Apparent physical determinacy goes over our heads because we're so epistemologically limited and can't begin to comprehend cause and effect across such a huge scale.

    I'd say it's very philosophically interesting, but ultimately the question of free will has very little standing on most of our day-to-day existences in any meaningful way.

  22. Post #102
    NATURALLY WIRED TO HAVE SEX WITH KIDS
    Rubs10's Avatar
    June 2007
    8,785 Posts
    There are many philosophies and ethics that are based off of free will. I don't get as angry at people because I understand that it's not their fault in the slightest. Understanding that there's no free will also gives you a deeper understanding of how people work.

  23. Post #103
    Gold Member
    CrashLemon's Avatar
    November 2007
    991 Posts
    Our brain is governed by biochemistry, but what we are and what we think is just a result of different mixes of particles and atoms, but your brain does mix them freely which means it is in fact free will. It does have its limits of mixes, but who said you can't be free in a limited space?

    Also, you have to define what free is, because it's only a concept, like time.

  24. Post #104
    Our brain is governed by biochemistry, but what we are and what we think is just a result of different mixes of particles and atoms, but your brain does mix them freely which means it is in fact free will. It does have its limits of mixes, but who said you can't be free in a limited space?
    It mixes them freely? So the chemicals in your brain mix with actual metaphysical freedom from the laws of physics?

    Also, you have to define what free is, because it's only a concept, like time.
    Don't even

  25. Post #105
    sonny99's Avatar
    February 2011
    279 Posts
    Religion would be the only reason to think people have free will. From a non religious viewpoint arguing for free will would be comparable to arguing for God. (absolutely no reason to believe that it exists)
    I object, my (Christian) father always taught me that God is the only being with free will because he is the one who planned everything. I'm not the best at explaining these types of things.

  26. Post #106
    Bat-shit's Avatar
    October 2010
    12,794 Posts
    Our brain is governed by biochemistry, but what we are and what we think is just a result of different mixes of particles and atoms, but your brain does mix them freely which means it is in fact free will. It does have its limits of mixes, but who said you can't be free in a limited space?

    Also, you have to define what free is, because it's only a concept, like time.
    Agree totally agree, our biochemistry and all that shit (the chemicals in our brains) is what makes us so.. one of a kind. Definitely "survival of the fittest" if you want to put it all natural lol.

    As for time.. it's a slow, podding thing but our timezone, as in our planets timezone, it's what we live on so it's a good concept, people have figured it all out with them scientists doing their research. And that's thanks to our brains and the chemicals.. again. It's pretty cool and fascinating I guess.

  27. Post #107
    I object, my (Christian) father always taught me that God is the only being with free will because he is the one who planned everything. I'm not the best at explaining these types of things.
    But how could he judge beings he created by whether their actions are right or wrong in his eyes if he created them without the ability to choose?

  28. Post #108
    Gold Member
    superstepa's Avatar
    June 2009
    8,949 Posts
    In my opinion the fact that two people act differently in the same situation partially proves that Free Will exists

  29. Post #109
    sonny99's Avatar
    February 2011
    279 Posts
    But how could he judge beings he created by whether their actions are right or wrong in his eyes if he created them without the ability to choose?
    That's a question that I don't have the answer to.

  30. Post #110
    Gold Member
    CrashLemon's Avatar
    November 2007
    991 Posts
    It mixes them freely? So the chemicals in your brain mix with actual metaphysical freedom from the laws of physics?

    Don't even
    Well, what is free from the laws of physics? If there's nothing that is free from the laws of physics then free is only a concept as it doesn't really exists.

  31. Post #111
    In my opinion the fact that two people act differently in the same situation partially proves that Free Will exists
    But that's never happened. There have never been two exactly identical people in exactly identical circumstances.

  32. Post #112
    Thoughtless's Avatar
    September 2011
    689 Posts
    I know free will is very unlikely to exist in the form we think of as you are not determined to do something. But the brain is a very complex system, which is impossible to predict so we do have free will as we can't predict what you are going to do 100%.
    My only problem with the idea of a complex determined system as the brain is why am I me? Which is a confusing question, and difficult to explain even the question, let alone possible answers so why bother, it doesn't mean much to me anyway.

    Edited:

    But that only really applies for the small scale. On our everyday scale quantum effects don't dominate.

    If you shoot a billiard ball down the centre of a billiard table and it has only momentum in one direction and has no spin (angular momentum on it), and it impacts another billiard ball 'square-on' (an odd term for a sphere, but go with it) then classical physics will calculate (and correctly so) that the impacted ball with move directly backwards. Determinism in action - cause and effect. It works for our length scale.

    The statement 'determinism is probably wrong' is an all encompassing statement which applies to all length scales and I don't agree with that.
    That is a approximation, and on everyday scales yes it is as close as you are going to get it. Your brain is a complex system with many neural pathways. A quantum event could easily affect the path of an electron and hence make you behave differently. This doesn't make free will more likely but does mean we could be affected by quantum events and the multiverse can work in some interpretations of it.

  33. Post #113
    dgg
    I ❤ Angel Beats
    dgg's Avatar
    October 2005
    26,297 Posts
    I don't think we do. It would be terrible if we found out for sure, but the truth is shit.

    The premise of not having free will, I think, goes something like this.

    If we can predict the motions of a single particle, and we extend that to everything, we can theoretically compute what will happen, and what has happened based on some math.

    Meaning the reason why we appear to have free will is because of the initial conditions in the Big Bang.
    Perhaps the reason why 9/11 happened is because of some particle not being several nanometers to the left. Chaos theory does a good job of explaining what this is.

    The whole calculating thing assumes no one is able to see the results, because then you can (presumably) decide to do the exactly opposite, changing the future.

    I think I have it down.
    Exactly.

    If a supercomputer existed in the "start" of the existence itself and it had the ability to take in all the information in all of the existence and then calculate it's next move down to it's actual movement (fuck nanometers and nanoseconds, that's still inaccurate) then you would be able to predict the future.

    Because everything started with whatever happened in the start. Because rock a moves to destination b the outcome is c. Any interaction is doomed to happen because the things that interact had a movement that would lead to it's happening. Everything is just a completely logical reaction to what previously happened. Everything happens because of everything else. The grass in Florida, the worker in China, the drug dealer in Berlin, everyone and everything will in the end impact your life because they impacted other peoples lives which affected other peoples lives which eventually leads to your life, and you do the exact same thing to everyone and everything else.

    Quantum physics. Doesn't mean we have free will or anything, shit is just random instead of determined.
    I don't think Quantum Physics is random at all. We just don't understand it or can't see the differences causing it to look random.

    For some people a computer crashing seems random. In reality if you go deeper you'll see that it's all a logical reaction where some component or software caused another component or software to go haywire. In the same way what they observe is some seemingly identical movements and atoms doing the same things, but in reality they were very slightly different causing a completely different reaction because that's how they work.

    First can we define free will because a lot of these arguments are almost nonsensical. Is it being able to make a choice based on information you don't have and being able to pull it out of your ass? Is it being able to make decisions from a supernatural perspective? Is it being able to choose something completely randomly rather than how you would make a choice? How do you test any of this with any relevance if you cannot determine the difference between a lack of choice and a sensible choice or turning it into a precognition test?

    It's not a simple concept, ascertain what you are trying to disprove before making all kinds of stupid arguments.
    Free will is the ability to make a choice on your own.

    We don't have free will because we just follow what we logically would do. Because we are in a certain environment with/without certain people with whom we have certain information about which makes us think and act in such a way and etc etc. There are millions of factors playing in on your behaviour and thoughts every second because everything factors in on everything else. The environment affects the way you approach people, but the people also affect how you approach the environment, and in the environment there ar many things affecting your behaviour be it things like rocks, grass, litter, fences or tables, then there is the colours, the light or lack of it, the shapes and forms and EVERY FUCKING THING (which is impossible to list for a normal human being since there are many things on atom levels that have to be taken into account as well).

    And basically what I'm trying to say here is that you have the illusion of free will, you have choices, but you are destinied to pick one specific choice because it's logical to you because of all the things around you as well as everything that has happened in the past make you think in such a way that you land on a logical conclusion that causes your answer. You could go right, but because of everything that is factored in you went left, and there was absolutely no way you would go right, it's simply impossible.

    of course we have free will which isn't determined by our ancestors. what the fuck have you been smoking?

    let's say you have a napkin in your hands. you can either decide to drop it or keep it in your hands.

    this choice will be completely undetermined by the dna, but the moral set of rules you were brought up believing, your surroundings, even what you've eaten.
    Nobody implied that DNA was the only thing that affected the concept of free will.

    DNA is just one of the billions upon billions of things that affect you and destroys the concept of free will.

    If you think DNA doesn't affect you then you forget that the DNA is the reason your body is as it is. Compare a cripples life towards your own and you'll know what I'm talking about. Or even easier, compare a girl to a boy.

    What you do is controlled by everything you interact with. Everything will leave an imprint on you, humans start as a blank slate and we and filled in through out the course of our lives. We make choices
    based on what has left an imprint on our mind. So in a way free will both does and Doesn't exist
    Pretty much, but we don't start as a blank slate. The moment our brain is functional it starts and it is already affected by the DNA and instincts which allows it to live, act and learn.

    Well, our brains has gave us the intellectual ability to create tools, make sharp ends, split an atom, create capital cities and basically everything.

    So I don't understand how you can even say there is no free will? Of course there is.

    But creating something from nothing..? What's that supposed to mean?
    HAHAHA.

    Our brains have noticed that a rock is hard and when thrown at people it hurts. Thus throwing rocks became a weapon. The same process is applied to absolutely everything. Our brain observes and learns, what it has learned it applies to other things, and before you know it you have a spear and a hammer.

    It is not free will, if anything it is proof that free will doesn't exist because the principle behind inventing things is using the very same process that makes up our lives. Having one thing lead to the other.




    Free will is something that doesn't exist but should be treated as if it does. You chose your own set destiny. If you go with the attitude that "everything happens for a reason so I just won't give a fuck" you "chose" to make bad decisions. Free will is an important illusion that makes your destiny better.

  34. Post #114
    Bat-shit's Avatar
    October 2010
    12,794 Posts
    HAHAHA.

    Our brains have noticed that a rock is hard and when thrown at people it hurts. Thus throwing rocks became a weapon. The same process is applied to absolutely everything. Our brain observes and learns, what it has learned it applies to other things, and before you know it you have a spear and a hammer.
    Yeah, not long after our brain had noticed and learned that a heavy stone-like object can hurt in a blunt force trauma fashion, it learned how to split an atom in a tube.

    So all I can say is that our brains' observational and learning capabilities are almost like limitless, unlike the rest of the animals who clearly lack something in their brains that we don't. Due to that, we are more free to do shit in our constricted world, we even feel boredom so thank God to the freedom of choices to do things like uhh.. watch TV?

  35. Post #115
    dgg
    I ❤ Angel Beats
    dgg's Avatar
    October 2005
    26,297 Posts
    Yeah, not long after our brain had noticed and learned that a heavy stone-like object can hurt in a blunt force trauma fashion, it learned how to split an atom in a tube.

    So all I can say is that our brains' observational and learning capabilities are almost like limitless, unlike the rest of the animals who clearly lack something in their brains that we don't.
    Yeah, sure, we learned how to split atoms 3000 years before christ.

    Oh wait, no we didn't.


    The only reason human beings are making all these tools and shit is because we have thumbs. That's the only reason. We could grip things and use them in ways no other animal can. Thus we could make tools out of rocks and sticks.


    But I'm really not going to argue with you at all if you are so retarded to bring in splitting atoms next to the discovery of rocks as weapons.

  36. Post #116
    Gold Member
    Contag's Avatar
    July 2010
    11,828 Posts
    Yeah, not long after our brain had noticed and learned that a heavy stone-like object can hurt in a blunt force trauma fashion, it learned how to split an atom in a tube.

    So all I can say is that our brains' observational and learning capabilities are almost like limitless, unlike the rest of the animals who clearly lack something in their brains that we don't.
    Some species of monkey frequently use rocks to crush the brains of baby monkeys of nearby troops. It's quite vicious really.

    The key reason humans are so intelligent compared to many animals is that we have adapted to use language in a representational fashion, and we have thumbs for object manipulation.

    Solving problems in your mind, or insight learning, has been proven to exist in crows and probably exists in monkeys. Crows/ravens are one of the few species that is actually better off as a result of human expansion. There are plenty of amusing anecdotes and experiments. For example, some crows have taken to placing nuts on pedestrian crossings, letting a car run over the nut (thereby cracking it open), and then walking across on the 'walk' signal so they don't get run over themselves.

  37. Post #117
    Thoughtless's Avatar
    September 2011
    689 Posts
    Yeah, not long after our brain had noticed and learned that a heavy stone-like object can hurt in a blunt force trauma fashion, it learned how to split an atom in a tube.

    So all I can say is that our brains' observational and learning capabilities are almost like limitless, unlike the rest of the animals who clearly lack something in their brains that we don't. Due to that, we are more free to do shit in our constricted world, we even feel boredom so thank God to the freedom of choices to do things like uhh.. watch TV?
    Yes we do have something that the rest of the animal kingdom doesn't have, and that's the combination of thumbs, more cerebral cortex and complex social groups.

  38. Post #118
    Gold Member
    Contag's Avatar
    July 2010
    11,828 Posts
    Also humans have very little instinct because we have such a degree of neuroplasticity, that is, such a capacity to learn. That's why humans spend so many years in childhood, as opposed to a fly which lives a few days and runs almost entirely on instinctual behavior.

  39. Post #119
    dgg
    I ❤ Angel Beats
    dgg's Avatar
    October 2005
    26,297 Posts
    Some species of monkey frequently use rocks to crush the brains of baby monkeys of nearby troops. It's quite vicious really.

    The key reason humans are so intelligent compared to many animals is that we have adapted to use language in a representational fashion, and we have thumbs for object manipulation
    And well, the reason we have managed to get a more complex and uniformed langage is because of our thumbs. Because thanks to them we can write and draw which made us able to form an alphabet that could be taught rather than rely on memory which eventually fades away or warps over time causing no consistency and makes communication outside of very basic and primitive things very hard.


    You could basically say that most animals are bottlenecked by their body although there is a bit more to it.

  40. Post #120
    "We should allow child labor overseas ...the sweatshop is what is saving the 9 year old worker"
    Pepin's Avatar
    April 2007
    6,864 Posts
    A major fallacy that keeps being stated is that

    X is made up of atoms
    X's state can be predicted
    Humans are made of atoms
    Humans can be predicted

    This is a syllogism in much the way that

    A rock is not living
    A rock is made out of atoms
    A human is made of atoms
    A human is not living

    The issue is that there is a false predication that something acts in the same way despite it being from the same basic parts. It is affirming the consequent.

    If the position of rocks can be predicted then human action be be predicted
    The position of rocks can be predicted
    Human action can be predicted

    It is good to realize that the use of fallacy doesn't mean that free will exists, but it does mean that the argument doesn't work.