1. Post #161
    ask me for a rust key :~)
    LordCrypto's Avatar
    December 2008
    18,373 Posts
    Here's how I think of it using the teleportation by destruction method.

    CryptoPrime steps into the teleportation pad. he gets scanned, then destroyed.

    CryptoClone steps out of the other teleportation pad, but remembers stepping in as Prime.

    Prime is dead, but only Prime knows that he's dead. Clone may be told that Prime is dead, but as Clone's identity is Prime, he would be unable to believe being told that "he" is dead.

  2. Post #162
    Gold Member
    No Party Hats's Avatar
    October 2010
    12,982 Posts
    Now see if it was a shell of my old self, and they took my old brain and put it in... would I be the same?

  3. Post #163
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    September 2010
    8,080 Posts
    Basically, in a way you're still alive, but you're dead. What I'm saying is that your brain is shut off because of you being deceased, so you're not in a state of consciousness and are dead. You got your clone to carry on, but you're still dead.

  4. Post #164

    June 2012
    38 Posts
    Yes. Even if you somehow manifested an exact replica of yourself, YOU would die. Not the concept or existence of you, but just your body. I think.

  5. Post #165
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    October 2008
    1,912 Posts
    This question is difficult to answer, the reason being that we have very little understanding about how consciousness relates to the physical world. Which in turn is quite unsettling since your consciousness makes up your perception of this supposed physical world.

    Looking at it scientifically there is no way to differate between you and an exact copy of you. And if put in place of you, the copy would think and act exactly as you would. Really it's no different than copying any object, say a book or a car.

    The thread title, and many of the posters in this thread, refer to "you". What exactly is this "you"? Are you all suggesting the existence of a soul? This appears to be a concept few even think to question. First there's the issue of the molecules in your body and brain being constantly replaced. But what's to say that your the same "you" after loosing consciousness or even falling asleep?

    I think that consciousness and self-awareness in large part an illusion. Breaking it down it becomes evident that we really don't have any free will, and that self-awareness seems almost an anomaly in an otherwise physical and mechanical universe.

  6. Post #166
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    October 2008
    1,912 Posts
    Well again like I said I couldn't prove that it was the case since what you said could happen, however as a consciousness I can most certainly know my existence has been continuous, even if I could never prove it.
    What do mean by "know"? You could believe your existence has been continuous, but you wouldn't know. It's like you're ignoring his reasoning.

    In reality, "you" only exist in the now. "You" weren't posting on facepunch 2 days ago, you just have memories of your former self doing so. Memories that are little more than synapses in your brain. If I created you right now with all those synapses you would still claim that you "know" your existence has bern continuous.

  7. Post #167
    Clops with bisousbisous daily <3
    Mr. Smartass's Avatar
    December 2010
    9,188 Posts
    I have an identical twin. We share the exact same DNA, and were brought up in almost parallel environments.
    If I were to die, I would certainly still be dead.

  8. Post #168
    ECrownofFire's Avatar
    January 2011
    2,022 Posts
    Yes, you are dead.

    No, your clone is never "you".

    Your clone is another person with the same memories, personality, and genetics (among others). But it has a separate consciousness, and is therefore a different person.

  9. Post #169
    Skerion's Avatar
    November 2010
    2,885 Posts
    If your clone was just a inactive body that your consciousness could take control of with some sort of technology that involves the two brains being linked together after you die, then no, you could still be alive in the other body. Take a look at this video, for example.


    At the beginning of the episode, you'll notice a "dead" clone of the protagonist, a.k.a Charlie Cooper, sitting next to him. After Charlie's head is chopped off around 5:04, his consciousness along with his memories and the information he received at the headquarters is sent to the body left inside the car.

  10. Post #170
    newbs's Avatar
    December 2007
    634 Posts
    An instantaneous moment of quantum entanglement would occur at the event horizon. You would exist in both states: dead and alive. The entanglement would vanish as you pass through the event horizon as you and your clone move away from it.

    P.S. You just read a cosmological answer to a metaphysical question. If you don't understand it, don't worry about it bro. :)

  11. Post #171
    ECrownofFire's Avatar
    January 2011
    2,022 Posts
    An instantaneous moment of quantum entanglement would occur at the event horizon. You would exist in both states: dead and alive. The entanglement would vanish as you pass through the event horizon as you and your clone move away from it.

    P.S. You just read a cosmological answer to a metaphysical question. If you don't understand it, don't worry about it bro. :)
    No, what I read was a bunch of bullshit spouted out by someone who has no idea what quantum entanglement or event horizons are.

    And by the way, neither of them have ANYTHING to do with consciousness.

  12. Post #172
    Gold Member
    Fire Kracker's Avatar
    January 2007
    12,134 Posts
    It's as simple as this, really.


    But now:
    Teleporter scenario, person goes into teleporter, he is destroyed. He is now dead and everything is dark for him. (Let's pretend that's how being dead is)
    His atoms are beamed to another location, where they are rebuilt to form a replica of the conciousness and body of the person that walked into the teleporter.
    The replica will now be conciousness #2, as #1 is gone.
    Conciousness #2 believes that it is conciousness #1, and nobody notices that conciousness #1 is gone.
    So basically, for the person that goes in (Conciousness #1) he will see the teleporter start, then he will cease to exist.
    The person that comes out (Conciousness #2) will be the same as #1, except he still exists and remembers everything before and after the teleportation.

    It's strange to think of, and I'm not entirely sure if it's the correct way to think.
    For some reason, I feel that it's impossible that conciousness #1 can be teleported without being permanently destroyed.


    But now when I think about it even more, I realize that our conciousness is in the end a physical configuration.
    It should be possible to send it just like you can send regular atoms, thus keeping conciousness #1.
    I love thinking about this.
    but if we create a exact copy(it's a physical configuration) of conciousness #1 without it becoming conciousness #2 would we then be two people how would that work

    i wonder how that would feel

  13. Post #173
    Gold Member
    carcarcargo's Avatar
    October 2007
    15,125 Posts
    but if we create a exact copy(it's a physical configuration) of conciousness #1 without it becoming conciousness #2 would we then be two people how would that work

    i wonder how that would feel
    It's far more likely you'd just have two separate people with the same memories

    Edited:

    What do mean by "know"? You could believe your existence has been continuous, but you wouldn't know. It's like you're ignoring his reasoning.

    In reality, "you" only exist in the now. "You" weren't posting on facepunch 2 days ago, you just have memories of your former self doing so. Memories that are little more than synapses in your brain. If I created you right now with all those synapses you would still claim that you "know" your existence has bern continuous.
    Like I said, I can't prove I'm the same one, and there would be no way of anyone outside myself from knowing whether it was a continuous consciousness or a new consciousness that thinks it is, but I can most certainly know if I have been continuously conscious.

  14. Post #174

    February 2009
    177 Posts
    You would be dead. Your essence (Or soul because I believe in God) belongs to your body, just because there's someone like you doesn't mean your soul will be transferred to them. Yes, they will have your personality, passions, hates, likes, etc. and they will be exactly the same in every conceivable way, but it will simply just be "a different pilot in that one".

    Think about it this way, you have two planes, exactly identical, including all the flight computers as well.
    One crashes, and the pilot dies.
    However, the other one needs a different pilot. You can't put a dead pilot into the pilot's seat of a plane, right?

  15. Post #175
    BenJammin''s Avatar
    December 2010
    6,413 Posts
    You would be dead. Your essence (Or soul because I believe in God) belongs to your body, just because there's someone like you doesn't mean your soul will be transferred to them. Yes, they will have your personality, passions, hates, likes, etc. and they will be exactly the same in every conceivable way, but it will simply just be "a different pilot in that one".

    Think about it this way, you have two planes, exactly identical, including all the flight computers as well.
    One crashes, and the pilot dies.
    However, the other one needs a different pilot. You can't put a dead pilot into the pilot's seat of a plane, right?
    There is no essence or soul, it's simply just brain matter. Memories, feelings, consciousness etc.

    Unless they knew how to transfer memories and consciousness from one brain to another, if you had a clone with the exact same brain it would still be another person. Just with the same thoughts, dreams, memories, emotions. It would be neat actually, to truly see yourself from a third person perspective, you would learn a lot more about yourself.

  16. Post #176

    April 2010
    137 Posts
    A small thought - if a clone of you doesn't truly count as "you", then why does a previous version of "you" count? Everyone knows the body replaces itself every few years. All of the atoms that made you up 10 years ago are totally different. In what way could you *possibly* be considered to be the same person? If an exact clone of you doesn't count as "you", then who you were 10 years ago can't count as "you" either. At what point did you change from one version of "you" to another?

    The question is fundamentally flawed, I think. I've spent an awful amount of time thinking about this very problem, and the only solution I can come up with is that the question is flawed, and that the way we think about consciousness and identity is totally, totally wrong.

  17. Post #177
    Gekkosan's Avatar
    October 2010
    5,668 Posts
    A small thought - if a clone of you doesn't truly count as "you", then why does a previous version of "you" count? Everyone knows the body replaces itself every few years. All of the atoms that made you up 10 years ago are totally different. In what way could you *possibly* be considered to be the same person? If an exact clone of you doesn't count as "you", then who you were 10 years ago can't count as "you" either. At what point did you change from one version of "you" to another?

    The question is fundamentally flawed, I think. I've spent an awful amount of time thinking about this very problem, and the only solution I can come up with is that the question is flawed, and that the way we think about consciousness and identity is totally, totally wrong.
    Gotta agree with this man over here. It's hard to argue about this question when the life-experiences that make people for the most part is so crucial here, and even if you were cloned and those life experiences were not saved, the clone would be.. flawed.

  18. Post #178

    April 2010
    137 Posts
    if you were cloned and those life experiences were not saved, the clone would be.. flawed.
    If your life experiences were not saved then yes, it would just be a clone of "you", its own experiences could makes them out to be a very different person. If the exact brain structure was saved, including memories, experiences, opinions, consciousness, then you can only conclude that the "clone" is you, and "you" are the clone. They are both "you", and "you" are both of them. Neither one is the "true" you, they simply both are. There simply is no other way. The "stream of consciousness" (as it were) would just split - and there would two branches. You can't really say that the clone doesn't really count as "you", because there's no possible test you could administer to tell any difference - by definition, there would be no way to tell which one was which. So how could you say which one has a "soul" and which one does not? Simply, it can only be that *both* of them have a "soul", and both of those souls are equally valid as "you".

    I understand my view on this is quite unpopular, but the truth is, in order to answer the question you need to reduce everything down to the purely physical. You must conclude that there is no unique "soul". There is no unique "identity", we are all just biological machines walking around, processing data and interpreting it. Ultimately, what I finally realised when thinking about this for *far* too long is that, neither you, nor the clone has a *soul*, the question asking "are you still you" is broken, because nobody is really "you" in the first place - nobody is. There is no "you", there is only your brain concluding that its own interpretation of data is somehow special, somehow notable, and somehow unique.

    You can make an analogy like this - if you had a computer, let's say it's called Frank-PC, and the motherboard broke. You took out the hard disk, and put it into another computer, with every bit of hardware replicated exactly, with every stored memory cache cloned. Does this new computer "really" count as Frank-PC, or is it just a copy of Frank-PC? Has Frank-PC died? Has Frank-PC's "stream of consciousness" transferred from one computer to another? When you think about it like that, it's absurd. None of this stuff matters! What's the point of these questions? These questions are totally irrelevant, you're talking about the identity of a PC! It doesn't have an identity. Is it really the same PC? Who cares! You're assigning some mysitcal identity what is just a calculating machine. And this is exactly how I view these questions when asked about the human race. It's a silly question, with no answers. You're assigning some mystical attachment of "identity" to what is basically a biological data processor. It just doesn't make sense.

  19. Post #179
    Gekkosan's Avatar
    October 2010
    5,668 Posts
    If your life experiences were not saved then yes, it would just be a clone of "you", its own experiences could makes them out to be a very different person. If the exact brain structure was saved, including memories, experiences, opinions, consciousness, then you can only conclude that the "clone" is you, and "you" are the clone. They are both "you", and "you" are both of them.
    Very good I agree, that totally makes sense. Makes this whole impossible clone scenario sound pretty simple after all.

    Anyway, hate to kind of crop down your post but I want to continue this; say you didn't die, but you had an exact clone made out of you at that point (most notably the brain structure, memories and experiences as you said), I believe from this point forward they would still be two different beings, albeit actually the same. Sounds weird, but it would depend at which age the two clones would be. If at the age of 20 or more, a lot of things would be the same about these two even by the age of 50.

    But were the two clones (other one being the original you that didn't die to differ from the thread title) at the age of 1-2 and also separated so that they would live different lives in different area of Earth, they would turn out to be two very different persons, albeit the same-looking, by the age of 20. Even the outlook can change a little, the other clone could get into body-modification with tattoos and implants, for example.

    Also only later I noticed you said that, "its own experiences could make them out to be different" so.. yeah, that kind of summarized my post lol

  20. Post #180
    Gold Member
    Guy Mannly's Avatar
    April 2010
    3,191 Posts
    if your body was cloned, this would be the equivalent of having an identical twin with the same neurological makeup and memory as you. however, once you are cloned, your experiences would diverge for each copy. at creation your clone would technically be you, but from that point on it would become a separate entity due to experiencing a different point of view from you and, thus, forming separate memories.

  21. Post #181
    L33t modl haxorz..
    Katazuro's Avatar
    March 2012
    1,477 Posts
    The clone wouldn't be you even if they were made up the same way. The way how your body is networked is to take experiences from the YOUR entity. That other clone will also take experience from his entity. There is not really a definitive answer for this.

  22. Post #182
    Gold Member
    Zally13's Avatar
    July 2008
    4,976 Posts
    There's three core ways of thinking about the conscience of people and what it is from what I see.

    1) The soul. There is a belief that there is a soul that is separate from the physical and the body. That who you are as a person is determined by this soul, and it is merely occupying your body. This is based on spirituality and has no grounds in science, so this is a spiritual issue. The definition of a soul may vary from belief to belief, but this is generally the idea.

    2) The composition. People have put the idea that if you shut off the brain, moved the exact matter of the brain to a different area in the exact state it was previously, and then started the brain again, the person would be you. You in how you exist and how you perceive yourself.

    3) What I would call the stream of conscience. That might just be a more elaborate way of saying the signals that your brain are passing to each other, but I think it gets the idea across. In a computer, electricity is passing through the transistors until it is shut off. From there, a new session begins. I would say this is the same as a brain, and as soon as the signal gets interrupted or stopped, we die.

    I don't think the composition necessarily matters in all honestly. I think that the only thing that is important is that these signals are uninterrupted and continue to operate. Once those signals stop, however, you are dead, with no chance of recovery.

  23. Post #183
    Mon
    Mon's Avatar
    April 2011
    4,102 Posts
    think of it this way - if you photocopy an essay, and then tear the original to shreds, the original version has been destroyed - but now you have a copy of it, for all intents and purposes.

    now apply that to the question in the title. if you clone yourself, and then die, the original version has been destroyed. but now, you have a clone of the original. the clone is a totally separate entity, but it's a perfect substitute. so basically, yes. you would be dead. but your clone wouldn't be.

  24. Post #184
    Gold Member
    Eltro102's Avatar
    February 2008
    11,062 Posts
    A small thought - if a clone of you doesn't truly count as "you", then why does a previous version of "you" count? Everyone knows the body replaces itself every few years. All of the atoms that made you up 10 years ago are totally different. In what way could you *possibly* be considered to be the same person? If an exact clone of you doesn't count as "you", then who you were 10 years ago can't count as "you" either. At what point did you change from one version of "you" to another?

    The question is fundamentally flawed, I think. I've spent an awful amount of time thinking about this very problem, and the only solution I can come up with is that the question is flawed, and that the way we think about consciousness and identity is totally, totally wrong.
    the atoms themselves do not matter, the arrangement of them does, e.g., that hydrogen atom in that glass of water you drank? it was in adolf hitlers mustache at one point (example). This does not change the fact that that hydrogen is bound to an oxygen atom and another hydrogen, making water.

    Edited:

    think of it this way - if you photocopy an essay, and then tear the original to shreds, the original version has been destroyed - but now you have a copy of it, for all intents and purposes.

    now apply that to the question in the title. if you clone yourself, and then die, the original version has been destroyed. but now, you have a clone of the original. the clone is a totally separate entity, but it's a perfect substitute. so basically, yes. you would be dead. but your clone wouldn't be.
    you would be dead, but not to other people

    Edited:

    The clone wouldn't be you even if they were made up the same way. The way how your body is networked is to take experiences from the YOUR entity. That other clone will also take experience from his entity. There is not really a definitive answer for this.
    depends how perfect of a clone.
    If it's a hypothetical, perfect clone in which you are destroyed instantly and replaced by a clone created instantly from the instant of your destruction, then that clone would be the same entity as you. It would behave and react the same way and there would be no way to prove it was not you without knowlegde of the cloning.

    Edited:

    but if we create a exact copy(it's a physical configuration) of conciousness #1 without it becoming conciousness #2 would we then be two people how would that work

    i wonder how that would feel
    you would not be two people as the constant looping stream of consiconess would not be connected, however to other people you would be exactly the same

    Edited:

    Basically, in a way you're still alive, but you're dead. What I'm saying is that your brain is shut off because of you being deceased, so you're not in a state of consciousness and are dead. You got your clone to carry on, but you're still dead.
    who are you? I think that you are what is precieveable to the outside world, and if that is the same then your clone is you

    Edited:

    Here's how I think of it using the teleportation by destruction method.

    CryptoPrime steps into the teleportation pad. he gets scanned, then destroyed.

    CryptoClone steps out of the other teleportation pad, but remembers stepping in as Prime.

    Prime is dead, but only Prime knows that he's dead. Clone may be told that Prime is dead, but as Clone's identity is Prime, he would be unable to believe being told that "he" is dead.
    why would he be unable to believe he was/is dead? people believe in reincarnation etc...

    Edited:

    A clone is not the same as the original person, it is a different body and a different mind. A clone is only geneticly the same, things like your mind are not the same, so if you were the smartest man alive, and you had a clone made, the clone would not neccercerally be smart. The clone is not you, a clone is only a genetic copy, and your mind is not part of your genes, so long answer short, if you die but your clone is still alive, you are dead.
    I think people in this thread are confusing the hypothetical clone in the question with a "real" clone which could exist

  25. Post #185
    Chief Gunnery Sgt. of the SS Shitpost
    Skyward's Avatar
    March 2009
    16,251 Posts
    If you die but have an exact clone are you dead?
    Yes.

  26. Post #186
    Gekkosan's Avatar
    October 2010
    5,668 Posts
    ^

    But from that point when you died, a you continues to live life almost like as if you never died.

    Edited:

    Although I suppose there would be a body of you, so in that sense you have died.

  27. Post #187
    Mon
    Mon's Avatar
    April 2011
    4,102 Posts
    you would be dead, but not to other people
    that's just an impostor then

  28. Post #188
    Gold Member
    Guy Mannly's Avatar
    April 2010
    3,191 Posts
    if anyone's interested, here's a 50 minute interview of a psychologist on individuality and our sense of self.
    http://soundcloud.com/youarenotsosma...elf-bruce-hood

    one of the comments words what i said a bit better:

    Ilia Jerebtsov at 18.08 17 days ago
    If we're assuming that the mind is entirely contained in its physical container, then duplicating the physical container should duplicate the mind as well - this seems reasonable to me. But I don't think it makes sense to attribute the same identity to this new mind, because as soon as the new mind is exposed to its own sensory stream of reality, its experience will be entirely different, and so will be its reactions. The two minds will never be exactly identical, so you need to give the new mind a new identity to distinguish the two.

  29. Post #189
    Gold Member
    hypno-toad's Avatar
    October 2006
    14,749 Posts
    but if you were clone just before you were killed/died then the clone would be "you"
    No it wouldn't, you essentially state that in the sentence. The clone is a clone. You died. Perhaps to the perspective of other people the clone would be you, but it doesn't change the fact that you still died and are no longer conscious or alive.

  30. Post #190
    Gold Member
    Fire Kracker's Avatar
    January 2007
    12,134 Posts
    No it wouldn't, you essentially state that in the sentence. The clone is a clone. You died. Perhaps to the perspective of other people the clone would be you, but it doesn't change the fact that you still died and are no longer conscious or alive.
    but what gives us our consciousness

    if it's a physical reason then lets say exact cloning was possible with 100% replication, no growth period, you just split into another one of yourself(nothing is ever perfect, but let's say it was) then would it still be a different person

  31. Post #191
    Gold Member
    The First 11'er's Avatar
    January 2011
    3,724 Posts
    Yes. You have a well being yourself, and even if someone is the exact clone of you they're still different mentally. You, your personality, and what you have retained information wise is dead.

  32. Post #192
    Gold Member
    Guy Mannly's Avatar
    April 2010
    3,191 Posts
    Yes. You have a well being yourself, and even if someone is the exact clone of you they're still different mentally. You, your personality, and what you have retained information wise is dead.
    let me guess, you believe in souls.
    your memories are stored in your brain. your personality is determined by the structure of your brain. there is no part of your person that is not determined by your physical structure.

  33. Post #193
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    May 2010
    2,809 Posts
    A clone is pretty much the same as an identical twin, and twins are strange sometimes.

  34. Post #194
    I PAID $9 TO TROLL THE GMF BECAUSE I ASPIRE TO BE BETTER THAN MY PROSTITUTE MOTHER WITH 9 KIDS AND DRUNKEN FATHER WHO BEATS ME EVERY NIGHT. SOMETIMES I CRY MYSELF TO SLEEP HOPING THE MODS DONT BAN ME ;__;
    SoSicklyAwesome's Avatar
    July 2011
    1,242 Posts
    A clone is pretty much the same as an identical twin, and twins are strange sometimes.
    Uh, no it's not. The title says Exact Clone, which means it's exactly the same as you.

    Identical Twins have differences in personality, they just usually look the same in terms of appearance. Sometimes even then they don't look the same.

  35. Post #195
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    May 2010
    2,809 Posts
    Uh, no it's not. The title says Exact Clone, which means it's exactly the same as you.

    Identical Twins have differences in personality, they just usually look the same in terms of appearance. Sometimes even then they don't look the same.
    Then what's the difference from a clone?

    A clone isn't magically going to be doing the exact same things and be exposed to the same environment as the original, Twins usually spend the part of their life close by so if anything twins would end up even more similar than a clone that would live away from it's original.

  36. Post #196
    I PAID $9 TO TROLL THE GMF BECAUSE I ASPIRE TO BE BETTER THAN MY PROSTITUTE MOTHER WITH 9 KIDS AND DRUNKEN FATHER WHO BEATS ME EVERY NIGHT. SOMETIMES I CRY MYSELF TO SLEEP HOPING THE MODS DONT BAN ME ;__;
    SoSicklyAwesome's Avatar
    July 2011
    1,242 Posts
    Then what's the difference from a clone?

    A clone isn't magically going to be doing the exact same things and be exposed to the same environment as the original, Twins usually spend the part of their life close by so if anything twins would end up even more similar than a clone that would live away from it's original.
    Read the title.

    Edited:

    Of the thread.

  37. Post #197
    JPsRcE's Avatar
    August 2010
    1,238 Posts
    Teleporting an actual person is impossible, always will be unfortunately.

  38. Post #198
    I PAID $9 TO TROLL THE GMF BECAUSE I ASPIRE TO BE BETTER THAN MY PROSTITUTE MOTHER WITH 9 KIDS AND DRUNKEN FATHER WHO BEATS ME EVERY NIGHT. SOMETIMES I CRY MYSELF TO SLEEP HOPING THE MODS DONT BAN ME ;__;
    SoSicklyAwesome's Avatar
    July 2011
    1,242 Posts
    Teleporting an actual person is impossible, always will be unfortunately.
    That's not the point of the thread.

  39. Post #199
    Gold Member
    Craigewan's Avatar
    October 2005
    3,979 Posts
    Yes, because your personal stream of consciousness has ended.

    Your clone, no matter how exact, will always percieve things slightly differently to yourself, so will always begin to diverge from your personality, but that's all but irrelevant. When you die, your personal stream of consciousness ends and you are dead. Your clone is not YOU.

  40. Post #200
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    May 2010
    2,809 Posts
    Read the title.

    Edited:

    Of the thread.
    My point is that it's the same as if an identicle twin died, it's not the same person just because they are exactly the same.