1. Post #41
    Gold Member
    PvtCupcakes's Avatar
    May 2008
    10,900 Posts
    Real clones aren't like the ones in Sci-Fi movies or novels.
    A clone is simply a person/animal that has the exact same DNA as another.
    It's its own being. You are not psychically linked or anything.

  2. Post #42
    If it has an independent mind that you cannot control, then no it is not you and even suggesting it is is dumb. He would be your twin, but not you since everything that he experienced differently than you would result in him further developing to be different from you.
    Killing the original does not make a copy original anymore. It's still a copy.

  3. Post #43
    I'd buy that for a dollar
    Dennab
    September 2008
    5,876 Posts
    If the stream of consciousness is broken then the first person would be dead. But you should really rephrase your question, as it is contradictory.
    THANK YOU!

    I never could think of a way to describe it, but stream of consciousness describes what I am thinking perfectly.

  4. Post #44
    Gold Member
    proch's Avatar
    July 2009
    17,972 Posts
    Oh my god, eureka.
    This is the answer to life, people.

  5. Post #45
    Wait... so if I write anything here, it's going to show up under my name?
    B!N4RY's Avatar
    December 2009
    7,057 Posts
    Yes. Even though your clone is an identical copy of yourself, but you physically have no control over him as he or she is more of an individual person.

  6. Post #46
    Gold Member
    Eltro102's Avatar
    February 2008
    10,842 Posts
    Well, 98% of our atoms are replaced each year, I belive our neurons which use energy like any other cell have the atoms replaced. Over years, the large majority is replaced, resulting you in the same end state as the teleport clone.

    Maybe we are a conscious being constantly being slowly replaced, resulting in our atoms changing but our electrical impulses are not.

    So if you teleported, used the same atoms (Which go in the exact same order as before) can create an impulse exactly the same for a few micro-seconds before the brain becomes self aware again. These few seconds are you, so it is you and your brain goes on the constantly changing journey again.
    How ever, if you used different atoms the being creates similar impulses but it goes down to a massivly micro-scopic level that you are different, but still different ofcourse. Atoms are what we are, but can be changed aslong as the electrical impulse can exist while being changed.

    So my theory: Different atoms than 5 years ago, electrical impulse from birth = you.

    Same atoms, electrical impulse dies for a time = same electrical impulse from birth.

    Electrical impulse dies, atoms are changed in the mean time = Not you.

    Electrical impulse is directly copied into atoms exactly ordered as yours, but not the same atoms = Different impulse = not you.
    Electrical impulse directly pulled (Not copied) from you into atoms more or less exactly ordered as yours = you

    Atoms are different in their own special way which means nothing can be exactly the same. So if you teleported with your impulse placed into different atoms instantly, its you, ect...

    So with this confusing and long logic that helped me understand this (Thanks), a new conscious implies its a copied impulse = not your conscious.

    LONG LONG story short, using your scenario, it is NOT you.

    Note: Atoms can never be exactly ordered the same unless using "advanced" teleportation.

    PLEASE FEEL FREE TO SIMPLIFY THIS!
    an electrical impulse can be on or off, so all impulses must be on and so all the same, it is just the the arrangement of electrical impulses in the brain which gives an appearance of conscious thought.
    also, ive always thought teleportation would be making an exact copy of you at the location which you wish to go (exact as in every atom, every joule of energy is in the same place as when you were copied and then deleting the orignal)

  7. Post #47
    Dennab
    October 2010
    12,254 Posts
    Oh my god, eureka.
    This is the answer to life, people.
    Huh, I thought life was just a mere phenomenon in Space. Evidently a rare one too.

  8. Post #48
    I find this to be one of the most interesting things to think about.

    I think that if your body is destroyed and a perfect replica is created, then they are the same consciousness, whether or not the process is discontinuous. I think that the mind is completely material in nature, so that if I can examine both minds and determine that there is no physical difference between them, I can't make any claim that they are different people. It's thinking about that which informed my opinions of the self, and not the other way around. The whole claim that the new copy isn't "you" begs the question of what "youness" is.

  9. Post #49
    Dennab
    October 2010
    12,254 Posts
    -nope

  10. Post #50
    Dennab
    August 2008
    4,435 Posts
    Real clones aren't like the ones in Sci-Fi movies or novels.
    A clone is simply a person/animal that has the exact same DNA as another.
    It's its own being. You are not psychically linked or anything.
    Yes well everybody knows I'm not talking about that kind of clone.
    And what I meant by exactly the same is that at that instant the "clone" would have the same thoughts, memories, or anything that you had at the time.

  11. Post #51
    Dennab
    October 2010
    12,254 Posts
    Actually if you had 2 clones and they lived in different places and experienced different lives, they would be two different persons.

  12. Post #52
    Dennab
    August 2008
    4,435 Posts
    Actually if you had 2 clones and they lived in different places and experienced different lives, they would be two different persons.
    I don't think you read it right.
    Basically in one instant you were destroyed and an exact copy was created in a different location. So is it still you or somebody else?

    Edited:

    The whole claim that the new copy isn't "you" begs the question of what "youness" is.
    And this, if it isn't you then what are you?

  13. Post #53
    Gold Member
    superstepa's Avatar
    June 2009
    8,887 Posts
    Of course you die
    Even if you think the same way, it is still you who dies, and not your clone

  14. Post #54
    Von Kluth's Avatar
    March 2007
    115 Posts
    We seem to have established that "you" would be dead whereas the clone would not.

    However, cloning doesn't necesserily include humans.
    For instance, potato- and strawberry plants can perfectly well "clone" themselves by sending out new seeds (potatoes, with the same DNA) and then seperating themselves from them.

    No, I'm not suggesting that two potatoes are the same potato. But rather, is there a possibility that two strawberry plants are the "same" plant.

    The answer to this should be equal two the answer regarding human cloning.


    EDIT

    As JohnnyMo1 suggested it all begs an answer to what "you" are. Are you more than what is explained through science or just the mass of all your parts. According to the latter, two people (one the clone of the other) differ in no way to one another unitil they start getting different experiences (i.e. probably right after the cloning process). If you regard "you" as nothing but a individual made up of certain atoms and whatnot (and therefore suggesting that the clone differ from you), bare in mind that "you" then are always changing.

    On another note, which of the two people are "you"? The clone or the "original"? Both would claim to be "you".

  15. Post #55
    ask me for a rust key :~)
    LordCrypto's Avatar
    December 2008
    18,133 Posts
    But a strawberry plant can't report its experiences. The problem with this is the experiences that each phase would experience.
    original body:"oh god this tingles oh god what happened to my arm why am i being disintegrated oh fuck that hurts" then death
    clone:'well i stepped in the booth then i disintegrated then i was here"

    If they were the same person, then the experience would be the same. They aren't though.

  16. Post #56
    Played it for the plot
    Dennab
    October 2008
    14,789 Posts
    more importantly: if your clone dies, are you dead?

  17. Post #57
    ask me for a rust key :~)
    LordCrypto's Avatar
    December 2008
    18,133 Posts
    Your clone believes they are you, but as I stated, I don't believe you are dead.

  18. Post #58
    Your clone believes they are you, but as I stated, I don't believe you are dead.
    No the clone believes he is he, not you. The same way you believe you are you, not him. Which means you are different people, since you both think that of yourself.

  19. Post #59
    Gold Member
    damnatus's Avatar
    October 2006
    5,233 Posts
    You're alive for anyone but you. It's simple.
    (And for some reason I'm imagining huge protests against teleportation technology stating that "ITS NOT THE SAME PERSON ANYMORE")

  20. Post #60
    Sirdrone536's Avatar
    December 2010
    2,058 Posts
    You're alive for anyone but you. It's simple.
    (And for some reason I'm imagining huge protests against teleportation technology stating that "ITS NOT THE SAME PERSON ANYMORE")
    Solution= Have you and your clones merge into all computers and DNA as a collective and become the Geth

  21. Post #61
    Kiwi Bird's Avatar
    November 2008
    1,634 Posts
    Just because your purse says Prada on it doesn't mean it's Prada

  22. Post #62
    Gold Member
    zombini's Avatar
    November 2010
    4,320 Posts
    I personally believe that consciousness is just a combination of life experiences and the perception of the world. Make someone deaf, blind, remove their nose, tongue and remove their ability to feel, and that is what it would be like to be dead. of course, if this occurred before the person had experienced the world in any way, then the person wouldn't be conscious. Death is just the permanent disabling of the brain's ability to sense anything. When a person dies, they most likely wouldn't know it. As for transferring consciousness? Might be possible if you could perfectly replicate the person being replicated. Memories, senses, even the quantum particles in the brain would have to be replicated in order for the consciousness to be transferred. In short, it's not fucking possible to perfectly clone someone or to teleport them and expect it to be the same person.

  23. Post #63
    Gold Member
    Cone's Avatar
    August 2011
    18,628 Posts
    I think this is roughly equivalent to two different letter X's being the same. So, for instance:

    X
    X

    Get rid of one X:

    X

    The other X, as you can see, remains, and is no different for it. Which I'd say neatly takes care of the material side of it, but the whole consciousness bit of it is theoretical and subjective enough that I can't really say much on it.

  24. Post #64
    smelly member
    The DooD's Avatar
    June 2005
    7,020 Posts
    You are personally dead. But someone who looks and thinks exactly like you is still alive. But they're not you, you're dead.

  25. Post #65
    Dennab
    October 2010
    12,254 Posts
    I don't think you read it right.
    Basically in one instant you were destroyed and an exact copy was created in a different location. So is it still you or somebody else?
    Whatever

  26. Post #66
    No the clone believes he is he, not you. The same way you believe you are you, not him. Which means you are different people, since you both think that of yourself.
    What are you even talking about? He thinks he is the same person as you. He thinks he grew up doing exactly what you did, slept with the same women, ate the same food. Even if his atoms never actually did any of the same things as yours, they're arranged in such a way that he has the same memories. If you kidnapped someone while they were asleep, cloned them in the way described in the OP without waking them, and put the clone back in the bed, he'd think nothing happened. He'd think he just went to sleep and woke up, with absolutely no idea that his whole mind was just created.

    You are personally dead. But someone who looks and thinks exactly like you is still alive. But they're not you, you're dead.
    What makes them not "you?" They have all the physical characteristics of "you" down to the last atom.

  27. Post #67
    Dennab
    August 2008
    4,435 Posts
    I personally believe that consciousness is just a combination of life experiences and the perception of the world. Make someone deaf, blind, remove their nose, tongue and remove their ability to feel, and that is what it would be like to be dead. of course, if this occurred before the person had experienced the world in any way, then the person wouldn't be conscious. Death is just the permanent disabling of the brain's ability to sense anything. When a person dies, they most likely wouldn't know it. As for transferring consciousness? Might be possible if you could perfectly replicate the person being replicated. Memories, senses, even the quantum particles in the brain would have to be replicated in order for the consciousness to be transferred. In short, it's not fucking possible to perfectly clone someone or to teleport them and expect it to be the same person.
    OK but that's not what we're debating.
    And as for the "he would experience different things" idea, no he would not. Lets just say for the purpose of this thread you were destroyed and exactly recreated at the same location in an instant.
    Is it still you or not?
       also yes I think I've changed my stance   

  28. Post #68
    Lets just say for the purpose of this thread you were destroyed and exactly recreated at the same location in an instant.
    Is it still you or not?
    Thoughts like that changed my opinion just like they've changed yours.

  29. Post #69
    Dennab
    August 2008
    4,435 Posts
    Yeah, it's really strange. As for being recreated in a different location I'm not even sure.

  30. Post #70
    tristanguy2's Avatar
    July 2009
    679 Posts
    Oh god, I had this exact idea while watching Stargate.

  31. Post #71
    Gold Member
    Eltro102's Avatar
    February 2008
    10,842 Posts
    Of course you die
    Even if you think the same way, it is still you who dies, and not your clone
    but you are the clone, and vice versa.
    your clone is the same thing as you

  32. Post #72
    tristanguy2's Avatar
    July 2009
    679 Posts
    but you are the clone, and vice versa.
    your clone is the same thing as you
    They are still two separate consciouses.

  33. Post #73

    September 2011
    251 Posts
    snip

  34. Post #74

    December 2011
    28 Posts
    Seriously? How about i clone you and then kill you, would you still be able to make this thread?

  35. Post #75
    rovar's Avatar
    November 2009
    3,667 Posts
    By definition of using "you" as in an absolute context, yes. You are will always be dead even if you have an exact replica made, and even if your though process carried over. The thing is, you (in an absolute context) has already died. Therefore, the specific entity that is you, is dead. If you have 2 cloned apples and you eat one, does that mean you did not eat the apple because an exact clone of it still exists? No, you ate the apple, and it's inside of you. It's just that there was 2 so you have to eat the other.

    It's the same with a human, once it dies, the image of you remains due to the clone, but the body itself (you) is dead. Or at least, that's my view on this.

  36. Post #76
    Gold Member
    Deaglez7's Avatar
    March 2007
    442 Posts
    You're dead. Clone or not. The clone could be the same but it's not you. Deal with it.

  37. Post #77
    Dennab
    August 2008
    4,435 Posts
    Seriously? How about i clone you and then kill you, would you still be able to make this thread?
    Yes, since you cloned me it will have the exact same thoughts at the same time causing it to post this thread.

  38. Post #78
    Gold Member
    GoDong-DK's Avatar
    November 2009
    14,354 Posts
    As I'm of the opinion that there isn't anything that is "you" other than a very specific chemical composition, I would say no. It's like with a computer; if you copy a string of binary code to another location and then delete the original file, I think we would all agree on that it is exactly the same file. There's no difference in the contents of it, and if it's program or what ever, it would run all the same. It's not different than that, in my opinion.

  39. Post #79
    ─ ─ ─ ─ ─▀ ▀ ▀ ▌ ─ ─ ─ ▄ ▄ █ █ ▌ █ ░ ♥ ░ HONK HONK- ITS A TRUCK ░░ ♥ ░░ ░ ░ ▐ ▄ ▄ ▄ ▌ ▐ █ █ ▌ █ ░ ♥ ░ FULL OF DICKS ░░░ ░ ♥
    Jarrod's Avatar
    December 2010
    1,082 Posts
    It's strange to think of, and I'm not entirely sure if it's the correct way to think.
    For some reason, I feel that it's impossible that conciousness #1 can be teleported without being permanently destroyed.
    In comparison with the idea of sinks.
    The idea is that if you drop colored water in a pattern, it is destroyed, but not gone. But people thought that when something was destroyed, it was just gone.

    Edited:

    If you die but have an identical twin are you dead?
    Yes, even having a twin still considers yourself dead.

    Edited:

    If you copy the contents of a flash drive to a new identical flash drive then smash the original with a hammer, is the original flash drive fucked?
    No

  40. Post #80
    Gold Member
    wraithcat's Avatar
    December 2007
    12,617 Posts
    Depends. If your consciousness was copied over from the time of your death and transfered into said new clone body, or robot or whatever else.
    You as the individual would continue to exist. Now the question is would you remain the same. If transfered into a robot, your individuality would certainly change as there's a lack of chemicals and hormones that drive us.

    If it was transfered into a clone, you should more or less remain the same though.

    Now if instead this clone with same consciousness would be made prior to your death, it would not be the exact you as it would have a different set of experiences. Either lacking those that led to your death, or having been activated earlier a completely unique ones.

    Obviously such a clone would be able to pass off as you, would believe itself to be you and would be virtually indistinguishable from you. But it would not be you.