1. Post #1921
    Golden Egg
    3noneTwo's Avatar
    June 2010
    825 Posts
    I can't see shadows anywhere on this shot and it's kinda bugging me
    Yo it's cool dudes I found one.

    Aw yeah all up in the shadow realm circa 2010
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  2. Post #1922
    BenJammin''s Avatar
    December 2010
    6,390 Posts
    I really can't wait till this comes out. Once it does, I am going to playthrough this, then half-life 2, episode 1, then episode 2.
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  3. Post #1923
    Marbledemon's Avatar
    October 2011
    243 Posts
    I think I'm gonna spend my whole time with this mod comparing sections between HL1 and Black mesa, trying to find bugs or ways out of the maps, or texting all my friends about this awesome game.
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  4. Post #1924
    Gold Member
    Tuskin's Avatar
    January 2005
    17,925 Posts
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  5. Post #1925
    Gold Member
    LoLWaT?'s Avatar
    August 2008
    6,138 Posts
    I don't know...

    What are the chances of it happening if everyone on the development team supports it except for the lead designer?

    Edited:

    Why would Raminator have such a problem with it going open source anyways?

    Edited:

    Where's the input from Carlos (The project leader) for that matter!?
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  6. Post #1926
    Gold Member
    Neo Kabuto's Avatar
    November 2008
    5,641 Posts
    Why would Raminator have such a problem with it going open source anyways?
    It's probably just that it was a lot of work, and other people would end up claiming credit for parts of it, or being overly critical of their code.
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  7. Post #1927
    I made WAYWO a better place
    OldFusion's Avatar
    September 2011
    1,311 Posts
    Its a community project, the source code will get released some day, but probably not on the day of release.
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  8. Post #1928
    Gold Member
    LoLWaT?'s Avatar
    August 2008
    6,138 Posts
    It's probably just that it was a lot of work, and other people would end up claiming credit for parts of it, or being overly critical of their code.
    I've seen numerous attempts of people trying to do this in the past.
    It never works.

    Then they get their shit fucked by everyone else.

    Edited:

    Besides, this provides the foundation for Half-Life 1 esque mods and remakes... (of mods...)
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  9. Post #1929
    Meatpuppet's Avatar
    July 2010
    6,696 Posts
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  10. Post #1930
    Gold Member
    Chrille's Avatar
    August 2005
    5,427 Posts
    I've seen numerous attempts of people trying to do this in the past.
    It never works.

    Then they get their shit fucked by everyone else.

    Edited:

    Besides, this provides the foundation for Half-Life 1 esque mods and remakes... (of mods...)
    besides it would be the biggest community bro-service in the history of man
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  11. Post #1931
    Gold Member
    LoLWaT?'s Avatar
    August 2008
    6,138 Posts
       Also, something pretty funny that I thought of a while back regarding Episode 3...   
       If we were going to revisit the site of Black Mesa eventually, wouldn't it be convenient for Valve to wait until this mod is completed, its assets released, and they just ask for its use with them giving proper credit?   

    Edited:

    I mean, it would cut down on the amount of work Valve would have to do significantly...
    Plus, I think this mod has proven itself worthy enough for something like that.
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  12. Post #1932
    Gold Member
    Neo Kabuto's Avatar
    November 2008
    5,641 Posts
    he MENTIONED US
    Well, at least they're not going to do anything crazy about us getting their content into gmod.
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  13. Post #1933
    Gold Member
    LoLWaT?'s Avatar
    August 2008
    6,138 Posts
       Also, something pretty funny that I thought of a while back regarding Episode 3...   
       If we were going to revisit the site of Black Mesa eventually, wouldn't it be convenient for Valve to wait until this mod is completed, its assets released, and they just ask for its use with them giving proper credit?   

    Edited:

    I mean, it would cut down on the amount of work Valve would have to do significantly...
    Plus, I think this mod has proven itself worthy enough for something like that.
    Another thing I just realized...

    Wouldn't that kind of fit Valve's style?
    Because it would completely solidify that connection between community modders and developers.
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  14. Post #1934
    _Axel's Avatar
    September 2009
    1,960 Posts
    Another thing I just realized...

    Wouldn't that kind of fit Valve's style?
    Because it would completely solidify that connection between community modders and developers.
    Well, they did it with counterstrike and TF2, but HL is a Valve-made franchise, so it seems a bit unlikely.
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  15. Post #1935
    atttapi0's Avatar
    September 2011
    711 Posts
    The dev team is like those girls with huge tits who like to jump around but get angry when you hit on them.

    Explanation (If you're stupid): The huge tits are the pics, jumping around is releasing the pics, hitting on her is asking for them the game to be released.
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  16. Post #1936
    LANCEVOX's Avatar
    December 2011
    22 Posts
    The dev team is like those girls with huge tits who like to jump around but get angry when you hit on them.

    Explanation (If you're stupid): The huge tits are the pics, jumping around is releasing the pics, hitting on her is asking for them the game to be released.
    I feel stupid
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  17. Post #1937
    Gold Member
    ThePfeiffenator's Avatar
    May 2007
    793 Posts
    Another thing I just realized...

    Wouldn't that kind of fit Valve's style?
    Because it would completely solidify that connection between community modders and developers.
    I am pretty sure Black Mesa was destroyed by a nuke. Unless there is a time machine on the Borealis and you have to go back in time to stop the resonance cascade from ever happening, before the nuke blew up the facility.
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  18. Post #1938
    Gold Member
    Marphy Black's Avatar
    December 2004
    1,031 Posts
    Plus, I think this mod has proven itself worthy enough for something like that.
    The Black Mesa team isn't trying to stay true to Valve's work nor are they attempting to make the mod fit in with the established canon (i.e. shoehorning in a Kleiner appearance that didn't happen). They are willfully disregarding Valve's original intentions and designs as they want to deliver their own particular recreation of Half-Life, of which some of this interpretation is admittedly and deliberately in contradiction to the source material. I don't see how this is "worthy" of becoming legitimized as part of Half-Life when it's at odds with the series itself. Black Mesa is just another fan project deserving of no higher treatment than any other Source modification out there.
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  19. Post #1939
    Gold Member
    Mr. Someguy's Avatar
    March 2006
    24,067 Posts
    The Black Mesa team isn't trying to stay true to Valve's work nor are they attempting to make the mod fit in with the established canon (i.e. shoehorning in a Kleiner appearance that didn't happen). They are willfully disregarding Valve's original intentions and designs as they want to deliver their own particular recreation of Half-Life, of which some of this interpretation is admittedly and deliberately in contradiction to the source material. I don't see how this is "worthy" of becoming legitimized as part of Half-Life when it's at odds with the series itself. Black Mesa is just another fan project deserving of no higher treatment than any other Source modification out there.
    Care to explain? You've only given one example, and it's wrong.
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  20. Post #1940
    Gold Member
    LoLWaT?'s Avatar
    August 2008
    6,138 Posts
    Care to explain? You've only given one example, and it's wrong.
    Actually, I think he might have been right about the Kleiner appearance thing.
    I don't think Kleiner was with Eli in Half-Life 1.

    The scientist that was with Eli had a fixed model (He was always the same scientist) and it wasn't even Walter (The Half-Life 1 scientist with the glasses that Kleiner was based off of).
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  21. Post #1941
    Gold Member
    Chrille's Avatar
    August 2005
    5,427 Posts
    Actually, I think he might have been right about the Kleiner appearance thing.
    I don't think Kleiner was with Eli in Half-Life 1.

    The scientist that was with Eli had a fixed model (He was always the same scientist) and it wasn't even Walter (The Half-Life 1 scientist with the glasses that Kleiner was based off of).
    I think it was something about Marc Laidlaw saying that one was Kleiner. I'm not sure though.

    Is what they're saying.
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  22. Post #1942
    Gold Member
    LoLWaT?'s Avatar
    August 2008
    6,138 Posts
    Plus, you never hear any mention of Kleiner ever being with you in Half-Life 1.
    The only scientist that was mentioned ever being with you in Half-Life 1 was Eli by himself.
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  23. Post #1943
    QueenMelanie's Avatar
    July 2010
    169 Posts
    Mark Laidlaw is the writer of the plot though.
    He told them he envisioned those two scientists to be Kleiner and Eli.
    After all, it is Mark Laidlaw who lays down...The law.
    (Considering he dictates the plot, what is canon and what is not canon.)

    The Blackmesa team wishes to make it fit with Half-Life 2 and to make it into a reimagining.
    Hence it will not be exactly like Hl1, but they do work to avoid canon issues.
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  24. Post #1944
    Gold Member
    LoLWaT?'s Avatar
    August 2008
    6,138 Posts
    Mark Laidlaw is the writer of the plot though.
    He told them he envisioned those two scientists to be Kleiner and Eli.
    After all, it is Mark Laidlaw who lays down...The law.
    (Considering he dictates the plot, what is canon and what is not canon.)

    The Blackmesa team wishes to make it fit with Half-Life 2 and to make it into a reimagining.
    Hence it will not be exactly like Hl1, but they do work to avoid canon issues.
    Well, if Laidlaw declared that the two scientists were Eli and Kleiner then it obviously has canon over what was in Half-Life 1.

    Didn't know he declared anything though.
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  25. Post #1945
    Bloodshot12's Avatar
    June 2012
    5,708 Posts
    I'm sure even if the sources aren't released we can still get all the assets into Gmod.

    Watch, I'll bet someone will go crazy and recode everything from scratch for gmod as best he/she can.

    Then we'll be able to play Black Mesa coop in gmod.
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  26. Post #1946
    Gold Member
    Marphy Black's Avatar
    December 2004
    1,031 Posts
    Care to explain? You've only given one example, and it's wrong.
    Explain what? And what example is wrong?

    If you're looking for more examples of Black Mesa indiscriminately throwing out Valve's original designs with little thought, one recent change does come to mind. As everyone is no doubt aware of, the team just released a bunch of new screenshots, one of which depicts their new Bullsquid model:


    I'm sure anyone familiar with Half-Life found this to be a very jarring alteration. The Bullsquid's eyes have been shifted from the sides of its head to the top. The end result is something that looks more like a creepy ass frog, although the placement isn't anatomically correct to that either. According to Raminator's post here, the eyes were moved "so you can see where he's looking and what he's doing. The previous version of the bullsquid had static eyes that you could never actually see, because they were the same colour as his skin and stuck behind his tentacles."

    For comparison, this is the original Bullsquid model:


    Now while it's a bit subjective, I disagree with the notion that "you could never actually see" the eyes. For one thing, Raminator's claim that the previous eyes were "static" is flat out wrong. As illustrated in the above image, the original Bullsquid's eyes do blink, a minor touch that makes it immediately obvious at a glance where you can find the creature's peepers. Just looking at the thumbnail, you can see the sclera is plenty distinct from its skin tone. However, we can read a bit deeper here. Raminator's fairly contemptuous tone makes it seem like Valve's previous design was intrinsically flawed (such disdain for the original game's choices appears prevalent among the team, a la this Alien Grunt concept for instance). Their final conclusion is that the original model was incorrect and needed to be fixed. However, I'm going to totally blow their minds with one simple image:



    That's right! Believe or not, the bullsquid was based in part on the squid, which as it turns out, is actually a real thing in nature! Hence, the placement of the original Bullsquid model's eyes are, indeed, quite anatomically accurate to the squid part of its namesake. Yes, Valve (or more accurately, Ted Backman) did put some thought into the creation of this monster. The eyes were not an accident nor were they some unintentional oversight.

    This is a fine example of the Black Mesa team's considerable lack of attention to detail: they massively critique the original Bullsquid's design and, without even considering why it's named as such, decide "fix" it with their own "improvements". This sort of tunnel vision is evident in a lot of their work. They take one small piece of the game, whether it's a level or an NPC model, and fail to look at it from a bigger perspective. They don't look at at a room and think "How does this fit within the facility?" or "Why did Valve make it this way?" They instead approach everything with a "How many polys can I add?" mentality. They're losing (or, in my opinion, lost quite some time ago) touch with the very source material they're building upon. When questioned about it, they answer with "because we want it that way."

    Now don't get me wrong: making the mod to suit their personal tastes is all good and well, and the end product may still be a technical marvel, but I don't see any reason why this project should be held in a lofty position alongside the rest of the official Half-Life series. Valve didn't make it, Valve didn't oversee it, and Valve's original designs certainly weren't adhered to throughout its development. Black Mesa is a fan project and a fan interpretation of the original game. They might be aiming high, but they're still just fans like the rest of us commoner schlubs.
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  27. Post #1947
    Meatpuppet's Avatar
    July 2010
    6,696 Posts
    your only example is that they moved a creature's eyes about 10 inches so that you can see where it's looking

    Edited:

    and i sincerely doubt that any mod team has put in this much effort to make a mod
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  28. Post #1948
    Gold Member
    Neo Kabuto's Avatar
    November 2008
    5,641 Posts
    That's right! Believe or not, the bullsquid was based in part on the squid, which as it turns out, is actually a real thing in nature! Hence, the placement of the original Bullsquid model's eyes are, indeed, quite anatomically accurate to the squid part of its namesake. Yes, Valve (or more accurately, Ted Backman) did put some thought into the creation of this monster. The eyes were not an accident nor were they some unintentional oversight.
    .
    Ugh, now that's going to bug me every single time I fight one of them in BMS (whenever that happens).
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  29. Post #1949
    Meatpuppet's Avatar
    July 2010
    6,696 Posts
    This is a fine example of the Black Mesa team's considerable lack of attention to detail
    you provide no other examples, and all the evidence is stacked against you

    Edited:

    damnit automerge
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  30. Post #1950
    Gold Member
    ThePfeiffenator's Avatar
    May 2007
    793 Posts
    Ugh, now that's going to bug me every single time I fight one of them in BMS (whenever that happens).
    I am sure someone will make a model that replaces it.
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  31. Post #1951
    Gold Member
    Mr. Someguy's Avatar
    March 2006
    24,067 Posts
    I personally don't mind that design choice, it looks like an alligator now, and alligators are badass. Probably the only NPC change that bothers me is the Sentry Guns, they scrapped them in favour of a reskin of HL2's Combine Sentry gun, which is not only lazy, but bothers me because from a design and combat perspective, is much less stable and cannot secure a very large area. The main difference between the HECU and Combine SG's were that the HECU Sentry was supposed an area denial tool, while the Combine Sentry was a support tool. The HECU turret had 360 rotation, a stable platform, etc while the Combine sentry had maybe a 110 rotation and an unstable platform (a defect that according to the overwiki wasn't noted until they were fielded).

    Edited:

    And really that's just me being picky because the HECU Sentry was my favourite.
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  32. Post #1952
    Gold Member
    LoLWaT?'s Avatar
    August 2008
    6,138 Posts
    They don't look at at a room and think "How does this fit within the facility?"
    I don't think they need to ask themselves that question:


    http://boourns.cjb.net/images.php?view=4425 (larger image)

    The original complex in Half-Life 1 made absolutely NO SENSE
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  33. Post #1953
    Bloodshot12's Avatar
    June 2012
    5,708 Posts
    I personally don't mind that design choice, it looks like an alligator now, and alligators are badass. Probably the only NPC change that bothers me is the Sentry Guns, they scrapped them in favour of a reskin of HL2's Combine Sentry gun, which is not only lazy, but bothers me because from a design and combat perspective, is much less stable and cannot secure a very large area. The main difference between the HECU and Combine SG's were that the HECU Sentry was supposed an area denial tool, while the Combine Sentry was a support tool. The HECU turret had 360 rotation, a stable platform, etc while the Combine sentry had maybe a 110 rotation and an unstable platform (a defect that according to the overwiki wasn't noted until they were fielded).

    Edited:

    And really that's just me being picky because the HECU Sentry was my favourite.
    I fucking loved the HL1 HECU sentries. Yeah they were fuck all annoying, but they always made me think "why can't I use that"

    They gave us sentries in HL2 to use but those fragile things tipped when you walked past them.

    FYI, they did have the original turret



    But it was almost impossible to knock over the way it was in a gameplay situation. The current one still has 360 rotation and is, in fact, a variation of this model with 2 legs moved forward.



    As you can see, it's much more then a combine turret reskin
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  34. Post #1954
    Gold Member
    Marphy Black's Avatar
    December 2004
    1,031 Posts
    you provide no other examples
    I am not a performing monkey!

    But since you asked, I'll give you another example (but just a small one since you were so impolite): it's a well known fact that the balaclava-wearing HECU soldier will not return in Black Mesa. Their justification is that it doesn't jive with their Face Creation System. However, there's a fatal problem here. The balaclava wasn't just for eyecandy. In Half-Life, the head variations on the grunts define the type of grunt they are. Gas masks indicate the standard MP5 grunt. The red beret indicates the normal MP5 squad leader. The cigar-chomping flat top indicates the MP5 squad leader with grenade launcher. Lastly, the balaclava designated the grunts who use shotguns. This is a critical game mechanic as clear and instant identification of your foes should be a top priority in battle, especially if it means avoiding a shotgun blast at point blank range. Nonetheless, the Black Mesa team doesn't care about that in the slightest and would just as happily cut the balaclavas simply because they're unrealistic.

    Incidentally, the balaclava's supposed conflict with the Face Creation System is a pretty asinine reasoning to cut it entirely. You could easily create a head submodel tailored specifically to the balaclava head variation (in other words, without a face under the mask) so that it wouldn't clash with the FCS in any way. I sincerely hope this kind of grievous short-sightedness didn't cause sacrifices elsewhere in the mod.

    and i sincerely doubt that any mod team has put in this much effort to make a mod
    I suggest you check out The Nameless Mod, an absolutely amazing Deus Ex modification. It didn't set out to revamp the graphics, but it delivers completely reworked game mechanics, a metric crap ton of new NPCS, weapons, sounds, music, and etc., hours (14!) of new spoken dialogue, dozens and dozens of new maps, and a massive new fictional universe drenched in lore and story branches comparable to Deus Ex itself (that's certainly a feat!). This mod also took seven years of development, but naturally, no one cares since it's for Deus Ex.
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  35. Post #1955
    Gold Member
    Tuskin's Avatar
    January 2005
    17,925 Posts
    I like the turret model.
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  36. Post #1956
    Gold Member
    Milkyway M16's Avatar
    July 2006
    1,343 Posts
    Well the cool thing about all this is that if you don't like something in the mod, replace it! I'm fairly certain that both the old bullsquid model and turret model were leaked along with the rest of BM back in 2005 and I'm sure you could find a copy of it floating around somewhere.

    EDIT:

    Not that I'm advocating downloading their ridiculously old leak, I'm just saying that if you have a problem with some of the models, there are plenty of solutions already floating around the community. I also wouldn't be surprised if people release small mods like this to improve BM after release.
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  37. Post #1957
    Gold Member
    LoLWaT?'s Avatar
    August 2008
    6,138 Posts
    Eugh... I absolutely hate the way the legs on that turret looks.

    So what if the older one was 'near impossible' to knock over?
    Force players to think outside the box
    (I doubt many people who would play this will have trouble with that)


    When this comes out (Notice i'm saying when now), IF they release all of the files, i'm gonna throw some emails around and see if they'd give us the files for the old HECU turret and the older bullsquid model. (Because I do kind of hate way they switched the eyes up on the more recent one)

    If they do that I will have no complaints.
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  38. Post #1958
    Blue Member?
    Ermac20's Avatar
    October 2010
    7,604 Posts
    I don't think they need to ask themselves that question:


    http://boourns.cjb.net/images.php?view=4425 (larger image)

    The original complex in Half-Life 1 made absolutely NO SENSE
    theres a parking area over a cliff wat
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  39. Post #1959
    Gold Member
    Mr. Someguy's Avatar
    March 2006
    24,067 Posts
    The thing is the SG is, if it's true that it still has 360 rotation, then all it would take is some modeler like an hour to restore it to how it was (I think, I have zero knowledge on modeling), then just replace it.

    Personally I would have made it so that if it was too hard to knock over, give it a set health. Surely, armoured or not, that small turret will malfunction after being hit with 20 rounds from an MP5, right?
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  40. Post #1960
    Bloodshot12's Avatar
    June 2012
    5,708 Posts
    Actually it would probably take less than 20 minutes to make the legs look like how it used to.

    Since you can clearly see they are the same legs as before, just the polys are shifted, so all you'd need to do is shift them back

    Now I have no idea how you do collision meshes, so maybe it would take an hour, idk.

    Also for the bullsquid, most creatures with eyes on the side like that are passive in nature so it probably makes sense to be the way it is, it being a hostile and quite ferocious creature.

    Not sure if I like them there, but it does kind of make sense I guess.
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