1. Post #2561
    churboi austin
    Trogdon's Avatar
    October 2007
    13,218 Posts

    Edited:

    Why are Leica range finders so expensive?
    Because rangefinders are the most calculated pieces of camera machinery that exists
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  2. Post #2562
    It's amazing how nice and civil people who come into this subforum are, even people who make threads as their first posts
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  3. Post #2563
    Dennab
    June 2010
    1,908 Posts
    Because rangefinders are the most calculated pieces of camera machinery that exists
    What do you mean by most calculated?
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  4. Post #2564
    What do you mean by most calculated?
    I assume he meant complex or something along those lines
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  5. Post #2565
    hyper-articulate
    Roll_Program's Avatar
    October 2007
    12,673 Posts
    Because rangefinders are the most calculated pieces of camera machinery that exists
    lol what
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  6. Post #2566
    Him1411's Avatar
    November 2008
    2,339 Posts
    I've never really taken part in any other subforums, what are they like?
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  7. Post #2567
    ffFf
    Uber|nooB's Avatar
    June 2005
    5,912 Posts
    dont do it man
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  8. Post #2568
    Him1411's Avatar
    November 2008
    2,339 Posts
    well i only browse here, read the lmao pics thread and that video section.. whats wrong with the others?
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  9. Post #2569
    dai
    "arte"
    dai's Avatar
    February 2006
    26,672 Posts
    oh in that case you've already hit ground zero as far as a blue is concerned
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  10. Post #2570
    Him1411's Avatar
    November 2008
    2,339 Posts
    well for me the lmao pics does have some pretty decent content sometimes purely because i never go anywhere else for funny
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  11. Post #2571
    ffFf
    Uber|nooB's Avatar
    June 2005
    5,912 Posts
    read sensationalist headlines if you want to be infuriated daily
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  12. Post #2572
    churboi austin
    Trogdon's Avatar
    October 2007
    13,218 Posts
    pretty much every part of a rangefinder is precision engineered. The rangefinder mechanisms are MUCH more complicated and complex to assemble than an SLR camera. The parts have to be durable because if any slight thing goes wrong with a part, the whole system won't work. There's a reason why the cheapest of rangefinder M bodies (Voigtlander Bessa's) are still about $1000 new, and have an absolutely terrible reputation. RF coupling systems are intricate and prone to errors. Leica's are expensive because they are very durable. That is that all of these parts are made to last as long as possible, which brings up the price. Though they still run into far more problems than an SLR ever will.

    Basically the rangefinder technology was an overcomplicated way to shoot. RF coupling mechanisms were required in order to get the viewfinder to adapt to the type of lenses used (which the mechanisms themselves are very expensive. SLR magic sells an M mount lens for $4200 with RF coupling, and $2000 without) and focus properly. The focusing system is much more intricate than merely seeing what the lens would see, because you physically can't. The system is very intricate in order to mimic focusing.

    it's kind of like how mirrorless cameras simplified the process of the SLR system. Rangefinders were a concept that worked for the time, but aside from a few quirks don't really have an advantage over an SLR system. The technology is dated and expensive to produce, and very few people would actually prefer to use it. Thus it is a niche product, though still produced in the same high quality standard that leica has always done. but basically high quality standards (hand made, very durable parts used in lieu of cheap ones), niche, and lack of competitors drive up leica prices. they aren't on top as they used to be, and if it wasn't for a dedicated fanbase they would not be a company at all.
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  13. Post #2573
    long ass post
    I still think "calculated" is the wrong word for that
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  14. Post #2574
    soy un perdedor
    bopie's Avatar
    July 2010
    4,455 Posts
    [h2]cal·cu·lat·ed/ˈkalkyəˌlātid/[/h2]
    Adjective:

    1. (of an action) Done with full awareness of the likely consequences.
    2. Carefully planned or intended: "vicious and calculated assaults".
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  15. Post #2575
    Gold Member

    November 2007
    8,432 Posts
    I still think "calculated" is the wrong word for that
    [h2]cal·cu·lat·ed/ˈkalkyəˌlātid/[/h2]
    Adjective:

    1. (of an action) Done with full awareness of the likely consequences.
    2. Carefully planned or intended: "vicious and calculated assaults".

    Calculated:
    Proven wrong; Served; Treated.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...erm=calculated

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  16. Post #2576
    hzy
    Gold Member
    hzy's Avatar
    January 2009
    1,945 Posts
    pretty much every part of a rangefinder is precision engineered. The rangefinder mechanisms are MUCH more complicated and complex to assemble than an SLR camera. The parts have to be durable because if any slight thing goes wrong with a part, the whole system won't work. There's a reason why the cheapest of rangefinder M bodies (Voigtlander Bessa's) are still about $1000 new, and have an absolutely terrible reputation. RF coupling systems are intricate and prone to errors. Leica's are expensive because they are very durable. That is that all of these parts are made to last as long as possible, which brings up the price. Though they still run into far more problems than an SLR ever will.

    Basically the rangefinder technology was an overcomplicated way to shoot. RF coupling mechanisms were required in order to get the viewfinder to adapt to the type of lenses used (which the mechanisms themselves are very expensive. SLR magic sells an M mount lens for $4200 with RF coupling, and $2000 without) and focus properly. The focusing system is much more intricate than merely seeing what the lens would see, because you physically can't. The system is very intricate in order to mimic focusing.

    it's kind of like how mirrorless cameras simplified the process of the SLR system. Rangefinders were a concept that worked for the time, but aside from a few quirks don't really have an advantage over an SLR system. The technology is dated and expensive to produce, and very few people would actually prefer to use it. Thus it is a niche product, though still produced in the same high quality standard that leica has always done. but basically high quality standards (hand made, very durable parts used in lieu of cheap ones), niche, and lack of competitors drive up leica prices. they aren't on top as they used to be, and if it wasn't for a dedicated fanbase they would not be a company at all.
    my bessa doesn't like it when you make fun of it :(
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  17. Post #2577
    dai
    "arte"
    dai's Avatar
    February 2006
    26,672 Posts
    vicious and calculated serving of focus couplings
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  18. Post #2578
    Slippery-Q's Avatar
    November 2009
    1,205 Posts
    my yashica frowns at trogdon.
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  19. Post #2579
    Ohfoohy's Avatar
    November 2008
    1,202 Posts
    Shooting friends senior pics this week. I need tips.

    My class president did some, and I don't like them that much

    and I want to crush him.
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  20. Post #2580
    communistcat's Avatar
    March 2011
    653 Posts
    My Zorki-4 angrily disintegrates at trogdon.
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  21. Post #2581
    dai
    "arte"
    dai's Avatar
    February 2006
    26,672 Posts
    dat jpg compression

    Edited:

    oh it's facebook

    I swear to god if he only delivered his photos via facebook
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  22. Post #2582
    churboi austin
    Trogdon's Avatar
    October 2007
    13,218 Posts
    my bessa doesn't like it when you make fun of it :(
    I didn't mean to diss it, just to prove a justification to price point
    my yashica frowns at trogdon.
    That's not the same. It doesn't have a true rangefinder focusing system, nor does it have couplings because of a fixed lens, and different interiors. It's pretty much an entry rangefinder, and all leicas are like mark 1's. Very different animals.
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  23. Post #2583
    hyper-articulate
    Roll_Program's Avatar
    October 2007
    12,673 Posts
    pretty much every part of a rangefinder is precision engineered. The rangefinder mechanisms are MUCH more complicated and complex to assemble than an SLR camera. The parts have to be durable because if any slight thing goes wrong with a part, the whole system won't work. There's a reason why the cheapest of rangefinder M bodies (Voigtlander Bessa's) are still about $1000 new, and have an absolutely terrible reputation. RF coupling systems are intricate and prone to errors. Leica's are expensive because they are very durable. That is that all of these parts are made to last as long as possible, which brings up the price. Though they still run into far more problems than an SLR ever will.

    Basically the rangefinder technology was an overcomplicated way to shoot. RF coupling mechanisms were required in order to get the viewfinder to adapt to the type of lenses used (which the mechanisms themselves are very expensive. SLR magic sells an M mount lens for $4200 with RF coupling, and $2000 without) and focus properly. The focusing system is much more intricate than merely seeing what the lens would see, because you physically can't. The system is very intricate in order to mimic focusing.

    it's kind of like how mirrorless cameras simplified the process of the SLR system. Rangefinders were a concept that worked for the time, but aside from a few quirks don't really have an advantage over an SLR system. The technology is dated and expensive to produce, and very few people would actually prefer to use it. Thus it is a niche product, though still produced in the same high quality standard that leica has always done. but basically high quality standards (hand made, very durable parts used in lieu of cheap ones), niche, and lack of competitors drive up leica prices. they aren't on top as they used to be, and if it wasn't for a dedicated fanbase they would not be a company at all.
    Ok, if you're counting the mechanics only, that makes sense.
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  24. Post #2584
    Gold Member
    DoubleDD's Avatar
    July 2009
    2,516 Posts
    I need your help. My girlfriend's birthday is this saturday and I need some original presents.
    I'm going to take her out to dinner but I also would like to buy something for her.
    Tips?
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  25. Post #2585
    churboi austin
    Trogdon's Avatar
    October 2007
    13,218 Posts
    Ok, if you're counting the mechanics only, that makes sense.
    Yep that's what I meant. I don't think they are a good system for modern photography, much the way I see dslrs being mostly killed by mirrorless in the next decade. times change and it makes less sense to produce complex systems when such easy solutions exist today. Rangefinders are just so complex it's almost trivial to produce.
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  26. Post #2586
    Gold Member
    The Salmon's Avatar
    February 2008
    2,975 Posts
    I will never use an electronic viewfinder to the day I die.
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  27. Post #2587
    churboi austin
    Trogdon's Avatar
    October 2007
    13,218 Posts
    I will never use an electronic viewfinder to the day I die.
    Then you will be disappointed with the shift in the next 10 years. Having an actual accurate view of what the final image will look like is invaluable. I suggest trying a sony a65 or a77, the ones inside them are really incredible. There are just so many advantages over an OVF, the SLR will go the way of the rangefinder and TLR
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  28. Post #2588
    communistcat's Avatar
    March 2011
    653 Posts
    Does anyone here have a flash bulb flash gun I could try out. Preferably one that uses AG1 flash bulbs?

    Actually I just bought one off eBay.
    While doing some research it seems Cavers are the main users of flash bulbs now.
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  29. Post #2589
    soy un perdedor
    bopie's Avatar
    July 2010
    4,455 Posts
    Then you will be disappointed with the shift in the next 10 years. Having an actual accurate view of what the final image will look like is invaluable. I suggest trying a sony a65 or a77, the ones inside them are really incredible. There are just so many advantages over an OVF, the SLR will go the way of the rangefinder and TLR
    wen u supose firmware update will b out for rz67?
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  30. Post #2590
    Dennab
    June 2010
    1,908 Posts
    Off to Banff, Alberta! Talk to you all in a week (not that I really talk to you guys that often). I think I will start a thread for my trip to Banff just like my trip to China.
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  31. Post #2591
    Gold Member
    The Salmon's Avatar
    February 2008
    2,975 Posts
    Then you will be disappointed with the shift in the next 10 years. Having an actual accurate view of what the final image will look like is invaluable. I suggest trying a sony a65 or a77, the ones inside them are really incredible. There are just so many advantages over an OVF, the SLR will go the way of the rangefinder and TLR
    Give me an EVF with the same dynamic range as my eye and I might try it.
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  32. Post #2592
    hzy
    Gold Member
    hzy's Avatar
    January 2009
    1,945 Posts
    Then you will be disappointed with the shift in the next 10 years. Having an actual accurate view of what the final image will look like is invaluable. I suggest trying a sony a65 or a77, the ones inside them are really incredible. There are just so many advantages over an OVF, the SLR will go the way of the rangefinder and TLR
    yeah... nah...

    PS I can present my opinion as fact too!
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  33. Post #2593
    Dennab
    January 2011
    3,540 Posts
    dat jpg compression

    Edited:

    oh it's facebook

    I swear to god if he only delivered his photos via facebook
    the compressions bad yeah, but that's not the only reason it's shit.

    Ugly ass backdrop with ugly ass bokeh
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  34. Post #2594
    churboi austin
    Trogdon's Avatar
    October 2007
    13,218 Posts
    Give me an EVF with the same dynamic range as my eye and I might try it.
    You don't need an EVF with the same dynamic range as an OVF, because the sensors don't have that much dynamic range. With current sensors topping out at 13 EV stops, the EVF makes more sense in showing a final image as opposed to using an OVF, where you can't see the realistic dynamic range.

    And bopie, hasselblad is actually working on a mirrorless medium format camera allegedly, which I think makes sense for the format.

    I know I'm pretty drastically different in opinion from you guys, but there is a definite shift occurring already. For aps-c sensors, try out the a57 at best buy or something versus a d3100 and notice the massive difference in viewfinder size. This is the first place where the technology will make some big strides, in the low end dslr market.
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  35. Post #2595
    Kabstrac's Avatar
    April 2012
    3,422 Posts
    You don't need an EVF with the same dynamic range as an OVF, because the sensors don't have that much dynamic range. With current sensors topping out at 13 EV stops, the EVF makes more sense in showing a final image as opposed to using an OVF, where you can't see the realistic dynamic range.

    And bopie, hasselblad is actually working on a mirrorless medium format camera allegedly, which I think makes sense for the format.

    I know I'm pretty drastically different in opinion from you guys, but there is a definite shift occurring already. For aps-c sensors, try out the a57 at best buy or something versus a d3100 and notice the massive difference in viewfinder size. This is the first place where the technology will make some big strides, in the low end dslr market.
    actually, this isn't the first time I've read this. Some photo-blog guy or something was also talking about how he feels that this is the next step in "camera evolution" (by that I mean mirrorless or hybrids)
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  36. Post #2596
    churboi austin
    Trogdon's Avatar
    October 2007
    13,218 Posts
    Yeah mirrorless is garnering a pretty serious following. Sony abandoned the SLR design altogether, as have Olympus and Panasonic. Canon just unveiled their new mirrorless system, and while I don't find it to be anything that hasn't been done already, is gaining massive interest among consumers. For a digital format, moving to all digital components just makes sense, especially as batteries and OLED technologies improve.

    I'm not dissing DSLR's as I enjoy them, but times will change eventually, and I for one am excited
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  37. Post #2597
    Gold Member
    credesniper's Avatar
    September 2008
    5,595 Posts
    I remember a while ago someone linked to a site selling a scanner that was A. affordable and B. scanned developed film. Does anybody by chance have that link, or a scanner with similar qualities?
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  38. Post #2598
    dai
    "arte"
    dai's Avatar
    February 2006
    26,672 Posts
    http://www.nphotomag.com/2012/07/23/...of-the-future/

    --

    Ten things Nikon should do next | NPhoto’s vision of the future

    A Monday afternoon summit conference at N-Photo Towers has produced a series of ground-breaking ideas for future Nikon D-SLRs. Our criteria? It has to be technically possible, genuinely useful or jaw-droppingly clever. Prepare to be amazed as we reveal our vision for the future…



    1. Electronic level information embedded in EXIF data
    Many Nikons already have electronic levels, and it surely wouldn’t be difficult to encode the tilt of the camera at the time the shot was taken into the image’s EXIF data. Your software could then correct any tilt automatically!
    Angela Nicholson, Head of Testing

    2. Touch-screen displays
    Not for taking control of the camera completely, but for quickly selecting menu options, or for zooming in on image in playback mode. It would save lots of boring button-pressing. The on-screen interface on the D3000/D5000 series is crying out for touch-screen control!
    Amy Davies, Test Team

    3. In-camera graduated filters
    If Nikon can apply D-Lighting in-camera, then a graduated filter effect would surely be easy. It could either be applied as the shot’s taken (like Active D-Lighting) or later on as a Retouch option.
    Chris Rutter, Technique Editor, Digital Camera

    4. Built-in ND (neutral density) filter
    Just to bring the ISO down to ISO 50 or 25, to help get motion blur effects or shallow depth of field in bright light. Not sure how it could be done, since the photosites on the sensor would presumably reach saturation point, but it would be really useful.
    Ben Brain, Editor, Practical Photoshop/Chris Rutter, Digital Camera

    5. Detachable LCD/remote
    What about a clip-on rear LCD which incorporates a wireless transmitter? You could leave it fixed to the camera to shoot in the normal way, or unclip it and walk away for remote operation.
    Rod Lawton, Technique Editor, N-Photo

    6. A simple, no-frills manual SLR!
    Perfect for students and colleges, and a welcome return to basic photography for the rest of us. No auto-exposure, only manual shutter speed and aperture control. I might stretch to white balance control and maybe even autofocus, but only one single AF point. Nikon could call it the FM-D!
    Ben Brain

    7. Voice commands
    You could tell your camera what to do, such as “centre AF point”, “lock focus” and “shoot in 5 seconds”. That would allow hands-free shooting, and you could even bark your orders from a distance.
    Peter Travers, Editor, PhotoPlus

    8. AF points right to the edge of the screen
    Apparently there are technical reasons why this hasn’t been done so far, but it would be a really useful feature nonetheless. You can do this in Live View, but it’s not the same.
    Chris George, Editor, N-Photo/Angela Nicholson, Head of Testing

    9. Built-in 3G
    Your Nikon could be its own wi-fi access point! That’s not to say your Nikon needs to turn in to a phone – there’s plenty of use for 3G technology beyond making phone calls. It would also be able to add location data to images, so there would be no need for a GPS device.
    Chris George, N-Photo

    10. Instant reset button
    How many times have you accidentally taken a whole batch of shots at unsuitable settings left over from the shoot before? All it needs is an external reset button (or combination of two buttons to avoid accidental use) which reverts the camera to default everyday settings.
    Rod Lawton, N-Photo[/release]


    --


    The concept of the FM-D is... intriguing
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  39. Post #2599
    Gold Member
    credesniper's Avatar
    September 2008
    5,595 Posts
    The voice command and 3g is a little silly in my mind. I guess if you take photos for sports and instantly want them shared/saved on a computer that would be good. That FM-D concept does sound fun though.
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  40. Post #2600
    churboi austin
    Trogdon's Avatar
    October 2007
    13,218 Posts
    The leveling idea is genius, I hope that is actually implemented. Such a cool idea.

    Built in ND filters are a good idea, but technically very difficult. Offering ISO speeds of 25 (software of course) are dangerous to the sensor as it is putting an excess amount of light on it. I'm guessing the mirror box would need to be altered in order for built in ND filters. The Sony f700 has built in ND filters and is mirrorless, which was thought to be impossible but was done, so who knows?

    The rest of the list seems odd, I don't really understand it. An all manual digital camera, seems weird although enough external controls would be interesting. Bundle it with a redesigned 35mm f1.8G that has selectable aperture and a classic design and you will have takers easily.
    Touch screens are nifty for focusing, so I say yes to that but only capacitive and an external button to disable.
    AF points at the edge of the frame is useless, just recompose after focusing.
    3G would be expensive, just have an option to teather to a phone.
    Reset button had been done before, by Minolta on the 9xi. A very welcome feature, but nothing new.

    I think phone tethering and an open firmware would be great camera innovations, I mean look at the GH2 and how much modding has helped the sales of that. And phone tethering would be cool if it could do live view from a distance, be used as a remote, and able to upload pictures off of a wireless signal.
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