[TheDecryptor]

The issues with Minecraft aren't due to the language it's written in, they're down to how certain things in the engine work.

It tries to render entire chunks, even if they aren't visible. It calculates AI for mobs you can never see, etc. And chunk loading is pretty slow too. You could re-write Minecraft in C or such and it'd be just as slow unless you fixed those issues, and if you fixed them it'd speed up the Java version as well anyway.

Edit: And people are mixing up languages and runtimes. Android uses Java, but it doesn't use the Java VM. Any speed increases from porting it to C# come from the different runtimes, not the language.

[Foogooman]

TheDecryptor posted:

The issues with Minecraft aren't due to the language it's written in, they're down to how certain things in the engine work.

It tries to render entire chunks, even if they aren't visible. It calculates AI for mobs you can never see, etc. And chunk loading is pretty slow too. You could re-write Minecraft in C or such and it'd be just as slow unless you fixed those issues, and if you fixed them it'd speed up the Java version as well anyway.

Edit: And people are mixing up languages and runtimes. Android uses Java, but it doesn't use the Java VM. Any speed increases from porting it to C# come from the different runtimes, not the language.

The bottom line is that the game needs a rewrite but Jeb and Notch are incapable of that judging from their track records. So they need new people. They're not about to hire new java coders that are gonna outshine them so go ahead and bring on new employees and rewrite it in a better language. A good java coder can fix those issues but there are some things that java simply can't do or can't do well.

[assassin_Raptor]

Foogooman posted:

1. If it's stupid then why did Mojang do it for the 360? They coded it to work with the 360 platform, just the same way they should code it to work with the PC platform.
2. There are a lot of people that already know C++ too. How do you know there wouldn't be better, or even more modders if they could use C++?
3. Minecraft has NEVER been well optimized and it's probably never going to be. Search the patch notes for "optimize". You won't find anything. Half the idea is to hire new employees that know how to code.
4. So that they could make a version of Minecraft that doesn't appear to be coded by a freshman who just took his first java class? They can afford the employees.

lol ok

1. 4J studios coded minecraft for the xbox, they were not hired by Mojang but by Microsoft.
2. Yes people know C++, but what about the majority of people that do not know it would have to learn it, although it would benefit them to learn it. They will probably just get mad and rage at notch even worse than they already do.
3. They optimized lighting, it is a lot faster now since its just texture based. I am sure lots of other stuff is more optimized now than it was 8 months ago.
4. It doesn't appear to be coded by a freshman, its a really good game. Part of the problem is just how things are done, they could save a lot of time by just optimizing there code. No reason to completely re-write the games code in a different language.

Minecraft runs fine on my computer, it might not on yours and that sucks, but they shouldn't have to re-write a entire games code. If it was notch coding it in C++ hell it could be as badly optimized as it is currently. It runs fine on a console since they coded it to work perfectly on the exact specs of the xbox, you cant tailor a game for pc on one set of specs when over a million people with different combinations of hardware are playing your game.

Edited:

Foogooman posted:

The bottom line is that the game needs a rewrite but Jeb and Notch are incapable of that judging from their track records. So they need new people. They're not about to hire new java coders that are gonna outshine them so go ahead and bring on new employees and rewrite it in a better language. A good java coder can fix those issues but there are some things that java simply can't do or can't do well.

Java can do games well, Runescape is a great example.

[Foogooman]

assassin_Raptor posted:

lol ok

1. 4J studios coded minecraft for the xbox, they were not hired by Mojang but by Microsoft.
2. Yes people know C++, but what about the majority of people that do not know it would have to learn it, although it would benefit them to learn it. They will probably just get mad and rage at notch even worse than they already do.
3. They optimized lighting, it is a lot faster now since its just texture based. I am sure lots of other stuff is more optimized now than it was 8 months ago.
4. It doesn't appear to be coded by a freshman, its a really good game. Part of the problem is just how things are done, they could save a lot of time by just optimizing there code. No reason to completely re-write the games code in a different language.

Minecraft runs fine on my computer, it might not on yours and that sucks, but they shouldn't have to re-write a entire games code. If it was notch coding it in C++ hell it could be as badly optimized as it is currently. It runs fine on a console since they coded it to work perfectly on the exact specs of the xbox, you cant tailor a game for pc on one set of specs when over a million people with different combinations of hardware are playing your game.

Edited:



Java can do games well, Runescape is a great example.

1. I know, but they did it as an agent of Mojang since they own the IP.
2. Maybe
3. Optimizing one feature in like 2 years hardly counts.
4. Again, based on their track record I am confident they will never optimize it. And yeah it really does look like a freshman wrote it. See: Examples

This is the kind of quality Notch codes. It's literally on par with a highschooler. (These are as of 1.8, some may be fixed or they could all still be in effect but either way it doesn't change the fact that he managed to fuck it up so badly)

* Chest state (open or closed) is sent twenty times per second per chest, even if the state hasn't changed. This equates to at least 10kB/s network traffic on a medium-sized server plus the processing the client does
* Same deal with the user list. Each user list packet contains the ping time for one user, and these are sent out twenty times per second per user.
* Experience orbs were broken in 1.8pre1 due to notch's horrible, backwards use of OpenGL. It was already known that dropped items cause serious framerate drops, and the inclusion of orbs made this worse. Multiplayer was unplayable. "So what?", you say, "this is a pre-release". This bug was supposedly fixed by jeb, but instead has resulted in experience orb duping
* The new user list renders improperly with Max Players set above 60, and completely fails to render when Max Players is set above 127.
* The new food system has bugs too - if food saturation is above zero, you can happily not eat without your food decreasing. Only if you take damage will your food start to decrease.
* New player effects can easily be manipulated to give users a speedhack. The server-side stuff that used to detect this cheating has been completely removed.
* The new server list incorrectly assumes a server is up if it has been refreshed within 5s

Again, Notch wouldn't be doing the rewrite. You can optimize for a broad range of hardware and certain standards.

[TehWhale]

TheDecryptor posted:

The issues with Minecraft aren't due to the language it's written in, they're down to how certain things in the engine work.

It tries to render entire chunks, even if they aren't visible. It calculates AI for mobs you can never see, etc. And chunk loading is pretty slow too. You could re-write Minecraft in C or such and it'd be just as slow unless you fixed those issues, and if you fixed them it'd speed up the Java version as well anyway.

Edit: And people are mixing up languages and runtimes. Android uses Java, but it doesn't use the Java VM. Any speed increases from porting it to C# come from the different runtimes, not the language.

Java wasn't meant for games.

[endorphinsam]

TehWhale posted:

Java wasn't meant for games.

Neither were pixels.

[Jurikuer]

endorphinsam posted:

Neither were pixels.

Technically that's as true as it is false.

[DireAvenger]

TehWhale posted:

Java wasn't meant for games.

Neither was any other language, really.

[endorphinsam]

Jurikuer posted:

Technically that's as true as it is false.

what

[Recurracy]

It's highly illogical that worthless junk is rendered even if you can't see it.

Anyway, I still haven't managed to fix Minecraft freezing after 15 minutes. Here's my specs from the top of my head, I'm not at my computer right now:

4 GB Ram, I think DRR2 or 3.
2.5 GHZ Intel Dual Core processor.
Nvidia Geforce 9500 GT.

Someone on the Minecraft forum said these specs should be good enough to run Minecraft smoothly, but it doesn't. I tried Optifine, but that'll just make it crash. I heard it's not quite easy on the HDD though, my disk is fragmented or 50% or so.

[st0rmforce]

So basically Foogooman, you want Mojang to develop two games, both called Minecraft?
It's what you'd end up with.
I'm not sure how you expect them to port the game over to C++, optimise it and keep up with development of the Java version. The C++ version would always be a few versions behind.

[TheDecryptor]

TehWhale posted:

Java wasn't meant for games.

So they should use something like GameMaker then? Since that's made for games.

[hobothehero]

Using multicraft to set up a server and having a few problems with some plugins.
One is the deathban plugin which works fine but we cannot change anything in its config file because when we do and restart the server everything in that file resets to default.
Second is the sneak plugin which doesn't seem to be working at all although we think it is because we havent added the permissions for the plugin which we don't know how to do.

Any help?

[ralle105]

Foogooman posted:

We should start a petition to re-write Minecraft in C++


Notch could easily afford to bring on a couple C++ programmers. Jeb continues developing the Java version for Macs and coordinates with the C++ team on the PC version.

Edited:

Hell the xbox 360 team already coded the entire game in C++, it's just an older version. Now just bring on a new guy to bring it up to date for PCs.

Because c++ magically fixes everything.

[ruarai]

c++ is made by fairy pixies from uranus that will save minecraft from evil notch

[st0rmforce]

I didn't expect to learn so much about C++ and software development in this thread.

[Oicani Gonzales]

Foogooman posted:

1. If it's stupid then why did Mojang do it for the 360? They coded it to work with the 360 platform, just the same way they should code it to work with the PC platform.

um
first of all it wasnt mojang and then the xbox uses xna natively so yea

[phytocide]

xna is just a framework for C#, as mentioned above

[TheForeigner]

[Foogooman]

st0rmforce posted:

So basically Foogooman, you want Mojang to develop two games, both called Minecraft?
It's what you'd end up with.
I'm not sure how you expect them to port the game over to C++, optimise it and keep up with development of the Java version. The C++ version would always be a few versions behind.

It's like no one is even reading my posts. The idea is to hire a couple new C++ employees to coordinate with Jeb. Both versions would always be up to date.

[chill_dude]

Dudes you've got to check out this new and awesome survival hardcore server. -noone cares-

(User was banned for this post ("Spam" - Gran PC))

[Failure]

Foogooman posted:

It's like no one is even reading my posts. The idea is to hire a couple new C++ employees to coordinate with Jeb. Both versions would always be up to date.

It's like you're not reading noone's posts.
There's no point in starting a completely new game alongside java version just because "performance gain".

Minecraft is still being worked upon so don't expect it working top notch(non intended).

Mojang will surely optimize the game more.

[Mio Akiyama]

chill_dude posted:

Dudes you've got to check out this new and awesome survival hardcore server. -yeah no-

No

[Foogooman]

Failure posted:

It's like you're not reading noone's posts.
There's no point in starting a completely new game alongside java version just because "performance gain".

Minecraft is still being worked upon so don't expect it working top notch(non intended).

Mojang will surely optimize the game more.

They surely won't. Not reading my posts, track record, etc.

[st0rmforce]

"I know guys, let's spend a load of money hiring some people to make a new version of the game in C++!"

"So we'll have a company full of Java programmers and no Java software?"

"Well we can simply maintain both codebases side by side for the rest of our lives. We can release any new stuff on whichever version is ahead, then release the other when it catches up."

"People won't like that"

"Well then we could just delay any release for an extra week or so, while we port everything over"

"But wait, if we hire these guys and they start porting the current version, by the time they finish we'll already be several versions ahead on the Java version"

"Aha! Not if we make sure they're always working towards the latest version. We can constantly change their goal so that they never know what they're working on from one day to the next! If they get depression from working on an unmanageable project, we can just fire them and get new guys!"

"But why would we do this?"

"Because Java is a bit crap. C++ is exactly the same as Java but not crap."

"Can you shut the door on your way out."

[bunnyspy1]

chill_dude posted:

Dudes you've got to check out this new and awesome survival hardcore server. -nope-

TOTALLY NOT YOUR SERVER

[NoNameForEvil]

NOPENOPENOPE

[assassin_Raptor]

Recurracy posted:

It's highly illogical that worthless junk is rendered even if you can't see it.

Anyway, I still haven't managed to fix Minecraft freezing after 15 minutes. Here's my specs from the top of my head, I'm not at my computer right now:

4 GB Ram, I think DRR2 or 3.
2.5 GHZ Intel Dual Core processor.
Nvidia Geforce 9500 GT.

Someone on the Minecraft forum said these specs should be good enough to run Minecraft smoothly, but it doesn't. I tried Optifine, but that'll just make it crash. I heard it's not quite easy on the HDD though, my disk is fragmented or 50% or so.

Are you using a 32 bit or a 64 bit OS?

[MeltingData]

NoNameForEvil posted:

NOPENOPENOPE

What texturepack is that? Craftee?

[AlphaAGENT]

NoNameForEvil posted:

NOPENOPENOPE

Brightened up the image, for all those wondering, It's an Enderman

[MeltingData]

"Asswarble Shitstain" is a really good seed.

[Artix3]

MeltingData posted:

"Asswarble Shitstain" is a really good seed.

So is "ToS".

[ZestyLemons]

Foogooman posted:

It's like no one is even reading my posts. The idea is to hire a couple new C++ employees to coordinate with Jeb. Both versions would always be up to date.

C++ isn't a magical language that make a game run better. There is literally no point to have two versions of the game.



Besides, there'll be a bunch of mods and stuff exclusively for Java Minecraft and a bunch of mods exclusively for C++ Minecraft, since you can and can't do some things with one or the other.


You'd just divide up the community into "other programming language sux lol"

[Computrix]

Was exploring the 'larger biomes' world type on snapshot 12w19a, found just about the best hollowed out mountain I've ever seen. Pic with coords and seed provided to those that want it (its larger and darker inside than these pics make it seem)

[assassin_Raptor]

TheForeigner posted:

It honestly isn't a bad song, just that his voice is high pitched cause he is like what 10? Also that dancing shit he did, that was just silly.

[Foogooman]

st0rmforce posted:

"I know guys, let's spend a load of money hiring some people to make a new version of the game in C++!"

"So we'll have a company full of Java programmers and no Java software?"

"Well we can simply maintain both codebases side by side for the rest of our lives. We can release any new stuff on whichever version is ahead, then release the other when it catches up."

"People won't like that"

"Well then we could just delay any release for an extra week or so, while we port everything over"

"But wait, if we hire these guys and they start porting the current version, by the time they finish we'll already be several versions ahead on the Java version"

"Aha! Not if we make sure they're always working towards the latest version. We can constantly change their goal so that they never know what they're working on from one day to the next! If they get depression from working on an unmanageable project, we can just fire them and get new guys!"

"But why would we do this?"

"Because Java is a bit crap. C++ is exactly the same as Java but not crap."

"Can you shut the door on your way out."

You're inventing problems that needn't be the case. Companies make PC, Mac, and Linux versions for their games all the time. They make it happen, Mojang could do the same.

[Agent Fedora]

Foogooman posted:

You're inventing problems that needn't be the case. Companies make PC, Mac, and Linux versions for their games all the time. They make it happen, Mojang could do the same.

But is it really necessary, to inconvenience coders, spend time and effort, and delay progress for some extra performance?

[Foogooman]

Agent Fedora posted:

But is it really necessary, to inconvenience coders, spend time and effort, and delay progress for some extra performance?

It's not an inconvenience at all. Notch would be giving one or two people a job, they would be happy just to be working at Mojang I'm certain. It's not a financial inconvenience either because Notch has some 60 million if I recall correctly.

[Zero-Point]

Agent Fedora posted:

But is it really necessary, to inconvenience coders, spend time and effort, and delay progress for some extra performance?

Especially since once they finished what-ever features they feel will "complete" the game they can just open up the hood and optimize the FUCK out of it?

[ZombieWaffle]

Foogooman posted:

It's not an inconvenience at all. Notch would be giving one or two people a job, they would be happy just to be working at Mojang I'm certain. It's not a financial inconvenience either because Notch has some 60 million if I recall correctly.

Holy shit, what's the point of even petitioning. Notch is not going to hire new coders.