[Cone]

One of the largest and consistently base-splitting arguments Facepunch - and a large amount of the world - has ever had the misfortune of being deeply entrenched in. Religion.

A lot of threads devolve into random flaming of Creationism (more often than not Christianity and Islam specifically), and people generally agree with this. I ask if this flaming is entirely justified, as I feel people should be able to believe what they want to in something so philosophical as the creation of the universe.

I have a general stance on issues such as this: believe what you want to. If you feel science is the way to go, good on you. Same applies for whatever other theory you may subscribe to. If you think you have all the answers, be content in the idea you have it all figured out - because there's a chance you may be wrong, and nothing hurts more than to have something so important proven wrong.

Basically, live and let live. Nobody gets hurt when we can admit we disagree with someone else's view, but can refuse to say that they are wrong nonetheless.

So I ask, for all the militants and people making horrible and overdone jokes in SH, are we too hard on religion?

[salmonmarine]

I feel like an open minded person who wants to experience the world is generally non-religious.

Someone who decides to build a close relationship with their family and community is generally religious.

I think they're just two different ways of living your life, it really doesn't matter which.

[AK'z]

I think if we become more accepting to what different cultures and personalities think like, then it'll be a lot easier to live with.

Right now, there are way too many forced arguements. What are people trying to get out of it? It seems to me people want no personality or culture in society. It's like the people who instigate this would rather we all become empty and start at the very beginning.

It's not as though THIS is the only time people didn't believe in a god.

Edited:

we hear all this "let's move on from the religious era", but people don't get that the religious era is long dead, few remnants are left who fight to the extreme but as a whole we're at peace with it.

I'm trying to ignore as much as I can to what is happening in the middle east.

[Gekkosan]

salmonmarine posted:

I feel like an open minded person who wants to experience the world is generally non-religious.

Someone who decides to build a close relationship with their family and community is generally religious.

I feel that an open minded, tolerant person who wants to experience/see the world and be fascinated by it, a person who respects the life on our planet and wants to live all peaceful-like sharing joy and wealth..

Those kinda people are as religious as you could ever get. Far more religious than any high-end Pope or some arch bishop.

[fluke42]

If they stop shoving religion down my throat and stop integrating it into our government (which they weren't supposed to do in the first place) then I have no problem with religions.

[Gekkosan]

"No problem as long as religious nutjobs keep it to themselves."

that's like simply moving tons of waste out of your sight.

[Cone]

Gekkosan posted:

"No problem as long as religious nutjobs keep it to themselves."

that's like simply moving tons of waste out of your sight.

Are you implying that there is a problem with religion itself, other than they way it occasionally affects people's actions?

If people can think what they want without forcing others to think it, I see no problem.

[Gekkosan]

It is a problem, or a miracle of sorts, how this religious bullshit has been going on for FAR too long.

Usually religious people don't even have any use for religiousness, other than to belong. And that was forced on them when they were born, and they grew up to be fine with it in a nice wealthy conservative American family.

Surely that's better than getting born into a ghetto/poverty though.

[LCBADs]

I don't think we're as hard on religion as people make it out to be - whenever a religion thread come up, a good chunk of the posters are atheists who feel they have to defend religion from "the rabidly anti-theist majority of Facepunch". Still, we are a bit hard on religious types sometimes.

[Emperor Scorpious II]

I think we're hard on religion because of a minority of fanatics that use their beliefs as excuses for their actions.

We should be hard on the people, not what they claim to represent. The media always has news on "fanatics and fundamentalists doing such and such for their religion" but you never hear about the majority of the world's religious people not doing anything but living peacefully with their religion.

I am a Christian and it pains me greatly when I'm judged as a bigot, terrorist, idiot, etc. just because of my beliefs when a small few fanatics are portrayed as the "face of the religion".

[latin_geek]

We're too hard on normal christians and not hard enough on dumb "hurr jeezus saves you can't be an atheist if evolution is real why isn't this rock an animal" christians.

[Noble]

Cone posted:

Are you implying that there is a problem with religion itself, other than they way it occasionally affects people's actions?

If people can think what they want without forcing others to think it, I see no problem.

Yes, there is a problem with religion itself as it spreads complete lies in an attempt to control humanity. They start the indoctrination usually at a young age becuase they know most people above the age of 12 aren't going to believe in talking snakes and Noah's ark.

And it also tells people to keep their mind closed on the subject because if they change their mind and end up de-converting, they'll be facing eternal punishment after death and possibly death for apostasy here on earth. This kind of indoctrination is extremely hard for people to break out of, and it is dangerous.

[POLOPOZOZO]

Nope go harder.

Makes no difference to me if they're fundies or not.

[Retardation]

Religion is responsible for countless of atrocities throughout history. Just because it did some good stuff too doesn't mean shit, and it's above and beyond everyones right to bash it.

[squids_eye]

I don't mind people who use religion as a set of rules to live by. But when they take it super literally or become extremists because of it then it starts to become a problem.

[Emperor Scorpious II]

Retardation posted:

Religion is responsible for countless of atrocities throughout history. Just because it did some good stuff too doesn't mean shit, and it's above and beyond everyones right to bash it.

A lot of things in history you hear were "in the name of God" weren't really in the name of god.

The Crusades? That was mostly political based. The Byzantine Empire was losing land quick to Muslim forces and sent a help message to the Pope because the Pope was seen as "above monarchs". Pope saw this as a chance to expand his political power and undermine the Byzantine Empire.

9/11 Terrorist Attacks? That wasn't religion based either, that was in response to United States interventionism in the Middle East. Bin Laden said so himself in his speech about the attack.

[Cone]

Noble posted:

Yes, there is a problem with religion itself as it spreads complete lies in an attempt to control humanity. They start the indoctrination usually at a young age becuase they know most people above the age of 12 aren't going to believe in talking snakes and Noah's ark.

Except it isn't always indoctrination. Some people decide what they believe doesn't have to influence what others do.

They aren't automatically huge monsters simply for their religion, and quite frankly I feel that any utterly huge blanket statement like this:

it spreads complete lies in an attempt to control humanity

Is almost always going to be proven wrong by someone.

Noble posted:

And it also tells people to keep their mind closed on the subject because if they change their mind and end up de-converting, they'll be facing eternal punishment after death and possibly death for apostasy here on earth. This kind of indoctrination is extremely hard for people to break out of, and it is dangerous.

Again, not everyone has been indoctrinated. In fact, I find it quite offensive that you jump the conclusion that someone must be forced to think a particular way. "They think something different? Someone must have forced them to, no smart person would come to that conclusion!"

Also, you seem to be talking about Christianity, specifically Catholisism. I am talking about religion, as you can see in the title.

[Canuhearme?]

Cone posted:

Also, you seem to be talking about Christianity, specifically Catholisism. I am talking about religion, as you can see in the title.

Facepunch tends to have a thing against Christanity, largely because it's the religion they've been most exposed to (mom and dad made them go to a few services before, and it was terrible.)

[The Kakistocrat]

I'm okay as long as they are tolerant of other religions (or non-religions) and are rational. I cannot stand religious people who reject basic science.

[kidwithsword]

Emperor Scorpious II posted:

A lot of things in history you hear were "in the name of God" weren't really in the name of god.

The Crusades? That was mostly political based. The Byzantine Empire was losing land quick to Muslim forces and sent a help message to the Pope because the Pope was seen as "above monarchs". Pope saw this as a chance to expand his political power and undermine the Byzantine Empire.

9/11 Terrorist Attacks? That wasn't religion based either, that was in response to United States interventionism in the Middle East. Bin Laden said so himself in his speech about the attack.

Regardless, those things were done in the name of God because they people carrying out the atrocities were essentially brainwashed by their religion into believing it was morally correct to do what they did. Religion was used as an excuse then and sadly religion is still accepted in modern day as an excuse for acts that would otherwise be punishable without a second thought.

[carcarcargo]

kidwithsword posted:

Regardless, those things were done in the name of God because they people carrying out the atrocities were essentially brainwashed by their religion into believing it was morally correct to do what they did. Religion was used as an excuse then and sadly religion is still accepted in modern day as an excuse for acts that would otherwise be punishable without a second thought.

Those things could probably have been rationalised by appealing to nationalism as well.

[confinedUser]

I'm only harsh on them if they tell me what I am allowed to say and what not to say, when this comes up I tell them to shove their god up their own stinky brown ass

[Noble]

Cone posted:

Except it isn't always indoctrination. Some people decide what they believe doesn't have to influence what others do.

What does the bible say is going to happen to you when you don't believe in Jesus and the Holy Spirit anymore? Does it encourage you to keep an open mind about these things?

Cone posted:

Is almost always going to be proven wrong by someone.

I'm not really going to argue about the validity of absurd biblical claims, it's a waste of time.

Again, not everyone has been indoctrinated. In fact, I find it quite offensive that you jump the conclusion that someone must be forced to think a particular way. "They think something different? Someone must have forced them to, no smart person would come to that conclusion!"

I find it unlikely that a smart person would believe that 2 of every animal on earth was loaded up onto a boat. Would anyone believe something like this without being threatened with hell otherwise?

I find it likely that some of the authors of the bible were under the influence when they wrote some of that shit (talking snakes, talking burning bushes, the entire book of Revelation), and you'd probably have to be under the influence too, to believe any of it.

Also, you seem to be talking about Christianity, specifically Catholisism. I am talking about religion, as you can see in the title.

Christianity is religion..and it's the biggest religion on Earth. I was also referencing the monotheistic faiths in general.

Canuhearme? posted:

Facepunch tends to have a thing against Christanity, largely because it's the religion they've been most exposed to (mom and dad made them go to a few services before, and it was terrible.)

Straw man.

[Joppari]

no
religion is a good thing, its culture, it may be some peoples last hope, it doesnt matter if its bullshit, the thing that matters is that it can help people, give hope. Like some people would rather live in the belief that there is afterlife.
Whereas some people like me dont, i can deal with it, some people cant, but its no big deal.

[Zukriuchen]

I usually don't try to argue with religious people, unless they insult my (lack of) beliefs.

There's a lot of atheists that should stop being such assholes, just because someone says they believe in Jesus, or anything for that matter. It's alright if you disagree, but you don't need to argue with them about why you think that way.

The same applies for religious people, though

[Archonos 2]

Gekkosan posted:

It is a problem, or a miracle of sorts, how this religious bullshit has been going on for FAR too long.

Usually religious people don't even have any use for religiousness, other than to belong. And that was forced on them when they were born, and they grew up to be fine with it in a nice wealthy conservative American family.

Surely that's better than getting born into a ghetto/poverty though.

Yes, because the only religious people in the world are rich white conservative Americans.

I think people just need to be more tolerant. There are extremists in religion and there are extremists against religion. Aside from those people, religion isn't (shouldn't be) a topic of verbal war. I feel like the majority of people on the website assume that all Christians shove their views on people, and for some reason "religion" to everyone on here is synonymous for "Christian."

It's like everyone has this pent up rage they need to unleash against religion every time the topic comes up.

Zukriuchen posted:

I usually don't try to argue with religious people, unless they insult my (lack of) beliefs.

There's a lot of atheists that should stop being such assholes, just because someone says they believe in Jesus, or anything for that matter. It's alright if you disagree, but you don't need to argue with them about why you think that way.

The same applies for religious people, though

^ This.

[Gekkosan]

-fuck it

[Canuhearme?]

Noble posted:

I find it unlikely that a smart person would believe that 2 of every animal on earth was loaded up onto a boat. Would anyone believe something like this without being threatened with hell otherwise?

I find it likely that some of the authors of the bible were under the influence when they wrote some of that shit (talking snakes, burning bushes, the entire book of Revelation), and you'd probably have to be under the influence too, to believe any of it.

"Stop believing what I don't want you to believe."

If you took the time to actually talk to the average Christian, Jew or Muslim, you'd be hard-pressed to find one who seriously thought Noah's Ark occurred. Belief and knowledge are two very different things, and someone can, in fact, hold two conflicting ideas because of it.

It's like Santa Claus (actually it's exactly like Santa Claus.) While children generally take it literally, adults realize Santa himself isn't real, but that doesn't mean you can't believe he's real (the idea/concept of Santa Claus.) Someone who believes in Santa Claus and one who sees Christmas as a time of sharing and goodwill are believing the same thing, just with a different approach.

Besides, Jesus was more or less trying to get rid of what he saw was a bureaucratic, dogma filled nightmare (ancient Judaism) that was at the time quite militant against the Romans trying to encroach on their religion and way of life.

[st0rmforce]

I think it's a very big subject, which involves a lot of different ways of thinking. People seem to like laying into "Religion", while actually talking about one part of it.

In my opinion the biggest problem on both sides of the divide, is a lack of understanding, served with a large helping of "people underestimating the size of their ignorance", and a huge side order of generalisation.

I do think some people are too hard on religion, but also that some parts of that huge umbrella-term really do deserve it. The main thing I object to is that some people seem to be allowed to make sweeping generalisations, but others aren't.
For example, this post:

Noble posted:

Yes, there is a problem with religion itself as it spreads complete lies in an attempt to control humanity. They start the indoctrination usually at a young age becuase they know most people above the age of 12 aren't going to believe in talking snakes and Noah's ark.

And it also tells people to keep their mind closed on the subject because if they change their mind and end up de-converting, they'll be facing eternal punishment after death and possibly death for apostasy here on earth. This kind of indoctrination is extremely hard for people to break out of, and it is dangerous.

...Is about as true as me saying: Atheists are a group of people who have very little idea about Christianity, but still rant and rage about the things they think we all do.
They may well exist and even be pretty abundant where I live, but it doesn't make it true. If I was to say that, I'd be including all the atheists who just have no opinion on religion, or are actually pretty well informed.

[JCDentonUNATCO]

Canuhearme? posted:

"Stop believing what I don't want you to believe."

If you took the time to actually talk to the average Christian, Jew or Muslim, you'd be hard-pressed to find one who seriously thought Noah's Ark occurred. Belief and knowledge are two very different things, and someone can, in fact, hold two conflicting ideas because of it.

It's like Santa Claus (actually it's exactly like Santa Claus.) While children generally take it literally, adults realize Santa himself isn't real, but that doesn't mean you can't believe he's real (the idea/concept of Santa Claus.) Someone who believes in Santa Claus and one who sees Christmas as a time of sharing and goodwill are believing the same thing, just with a different approach.

Besides, Jesus was more or less trying to get rid of what he saw was a bureaucratic, dogma filled nightmare (ancient Judaism) that was at the time quite militant against the Romans trying to encroach on their religion and way of life.

Pick and choose Christians are some of the worst out there.

[Cone]

JCDentonUNATCO posted:

Pick and choose Christians are some of the worst out there.

So did you read the first half of your post, or what?

[Zukriuchen]

Noble posted:

I find it unlikely that a smart person would believe that 2 of every animal on earth was loaded up onto a boat. Would anyone believe something like this without being threatened with hell otherwise?

I find it likely that some of the authors of the bible were under the influence when they wrote some of that shit (talking snakes, talking burning bushes, the entire book of Revelation), and you'd probably have to be under the influence too, to believe any of it.

I thought that the Bible was full of metaphors? Isn't it written in some form of poetry?

[LCBADs]

Zukriuchen posted:

I thought that the Bible was full of metaphors? Isn't it written in some form of poetry?

Doesn't really matter if the text was intended to be poetic when people end up believing it anyway.

[Levithan]

I respect and laud those that are both rational and religious, but too many I've come across are close-minded zealots.

I think someone already said that we should be hard on people based on their character, not on what they believe in.

[deaded38]

Noble posted:

Yes, there is a problem with religion itself as it spreads complete lies in an attempt to control humanity. They start the indoctrination usually at a young age becuase they know most people above the age of 12 aren't going to believe in talking snakes and Noah's ark.

And it also tells people to keep their mind closed on the subject because if they change their mind and end up de-converting, they'll be facing eternal punishment after death and possibly death for apostasy here on earth. This kind of indoctrination is extremely hard for people to break out of, and it is dangerous.

"OMG RELIGON IZ DANGEROUZ PLZ STOP IT!!11!!1"

Seriously, shut the hell up with this argument. Religion is not dangerous. It's the people that are dangerous. People claiming this are just pissed because they don't have some sort of faith except for "big bangz and evolushunz". This goes for everyone else who hates religion for absurd reasons. Religion WAS dangerous. See kids, with the church having no authority whatsoever in government matters, it would be kind of hard to create another crusade or some shit similar.

[Zukriuchen]

Noble posted:

And it also tells people to keep their mind closed on the subject

this is actually pretty ironic

[st0rmforce]

Zukriuchen posted:

this is actually pretty ironic

It's also bullshit.
Oh I'm sure there are some preachers who don't want their teachings questioned, but I don't think any religion says that it's wrong to question things.

[Emperor Scorpious II]

JCDentonUNATCO posted:

Pick and choose Christians are some of the worst out there.

So I have to either take the whole bible literally or not be a Christian? No room at all to look into the metaphorical aspects of it?

Edited:

kidwithsword posted:

Regardless, those things were done in the name of God because they people carrying out the atrocities were essentially brainwashed by their religion into believing it was morally correct to do what they did. Religion was used as an excuse then and sadly religion is still accepted in modern day as an excuse for acts that would otherwise be punishable without a second thought.

When have such things used as an excuse and left unpunished?

[LCBADs]

st0rmforce posted:

It's also bullshit.
Oh I'm sure there are some preachers who don't want their teachings questioned, but I don't think any religion says that it's wrong to question things.

Any religion that lauds "faith" over "doubt" implicitly does just that.

[st0rmforce]

LCBADs posted:

Any religion that lauds "faith" over "doubt" implicitly does just that.

Not really.
Just because we are encouraged to have faith doesn't mean that we have to close-mindedly follow everything we're told, without thinking.