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Post #361
I do believe we are hard on religion and the people who are idiots, but I also believe we need to be.
What is entirely different is that Facepunch is too zealous in it's athiests manners, becoming a zealot "for rational thought" and ridiculing those who actually don't need deserve it as some people have actually said akin to this in other threads.
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So then a gorilla would also be an atheist...
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well technically yeah, but that's like saying a gorilla doesn't have political affiliations.
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Being indoctrinated into atheism is like being indoctrinated into believing gravity exists.
Indoctrination to the truth is different than being indoctrinated into something that isn't true.
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...for a given value of true.
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Atheism basically is a religion anyway. Atheists have faith that there is no God. Noone can prove God does or doesn't exist.
That being said. I was raised by extremist Christians and had to go to school with the smugest, cock sucking homeschoolers of all time. If the kids I went to "school" with knew I was in the Infantry, dipping, drinking, swearing and occasionally fucking the barracks whore; They'd shun me forever for not going to some private christian college and studying religious science or being a preacher. I'm a christian but to put it bluntly, I fucking HATE the Christian people I know.
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It's about as much of a religion as bald is a hair color.
No
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil
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When you say " Noone can prove God does or doesn't exist. " it yanks my brain a little.
After all, God is a product of the human mind, like many other things. And few hundred millions years ago, there was no sin, atheism or even human yet, just wild fucking life.
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That's a theory.
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But we can prove gravity exists just by dropping a pencil. We can't prove that God exists or doesn't exist. Therefore, all this truth is speculation rooted in faith.
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Is that supposed to be a serious jab at evolution.
That's bullshit. God's existence can be proven or disproved using logical arguments.
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Before Newton came up with the idea of gravity it was believed that god pulled things to the ground when they fell.
Edited:
And just dropping a pencil doesn't show that gravity is what keeps the Earth orbiting the sun.
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Wrong. If a hypothesis is unfalsifiable it lacks credibility and cannot be said to be true until proven.
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so you have concrete evidence that god doesn't exist? or are you asserting your opinion as fact?
Edited:
Absolutely. Gravity is shown as F=G((m1)(m2)/r^2). Do you happen to have the equation that disproves the existance of a deity on hand?
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Do you have concrete evidence that God does exist?
Or how about evidence that Zeus or some other god who isn't your god doesn't exist.
We don't need to disprove every fairy tale that you can come up with. Just because you can think of something utterly ridiculous doesn't mean someone else needs to take time out of their day to prove your silly thoughts don't exist in reality.
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You asserted that god not existing was fact.
Fact:
1. an event or thing known to have happened or existed
2. a truth verifiable from experience or observation
3. a piece of information: get me all the facts of this case
4. (often plural) law an actual event, happening, etc, as distinguished from its legal consequences. Questions of fact are decided by the jury, questions of law by the court or judge
5. (philosophy) a proposition that may be either true or false, as contrasted with an evaluative statement
You equated the inexistance of god with the existance of gravity. Not only is gravity directly observable but it is mathematically proven. God or the lack of god is neither of these things. Ball is in your court.
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The problem with The Problem of Evil is that god can fit so many definitions. The idea behind The Problem of Evil is sound, but only for some specific forms of god. (Bare with me) There is the idea that god is the all knowing all caring man in the moon who see's us as his children - and there you can see where why the idea of why evil exists comes from. But what if you have a god that's created us as an antfarm type deal. You know those little spaceage ant farms that they have? Like that. He provided the resources for life and lets us live it without interruption. Ant 1 may have had his family killed by ant 2 and be praying to god for help - but how would you know if you can't hear/understand them?
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The 'inexistence of god' is not fact, but it does not need to be. There is no sense in disproving something that was never proven to begin with. Not only that, but in most cases if one tried to disprove God (the Judeo-Christian god more specifically), they would be unable to because said god has set itself up in conditions that prevent it from being disproven or proven.
So, to say that you "can't prove or disprove god's existence" is an empty statement, it's like saying "you can't prove or disprove that unicorns exist". Technically it is true, but any level-headed person wouldn't take it seriously because unicorns were never proven to exist in the first place, meaning that it isn't necessary to disprove their existence.
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Logic doesn't always dictate. ;)
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Since god cannot be observed or proved, it's safe to assume he does not exist.
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The burden of proof or disproving doesn't rest on science. Religion makes the claims that God does exist and has to prove it undeniably.
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When you compare god to gravity you're in a little deeper than just saying 'nope'.
Edited:
What do you think of circumstantial evidence in law?
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Yes, but generally when you're talking about whether or not something exists within the context of a debate, logic is pretty fucking important.
Edited:
At what point in that post did I mention gravity?
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I don't see where he asserted that god not existing was a fact, it seems like you just made that assumption after the comparison to gravity. Not all atheists go as far to say that god not existing is a fact.
I will go as far as to say the existence of the god of the bible (all loving, all knowing, and all good) is logically impossible due to the existence of evil (this god and evil can't logically coexist), and that free will cannot possibly exist if god is all knowing either.
Yes, and that's why I'm only applying it to the god of the bible, who is said to be all loving, all knowing, and all good.
He also intervened several times in the Old Testament and also in the New Testament by sending Jesus, so the "god can't/won't intervene" argument is invalid. Also if god can't hear or understand "ant 1" then he isn't all-knowing (which is one of the qualities this god is said to have)
If you're going to seriously try to argue this then we have nothing further to discuss.
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PvtCupcakes implied that believing in god was the same as not believing in gravity and you attacked my attack on his comment.
Edited:
Logically impossible if you believe that he's a puppetmaster and we're all tied to the strings of fate, but that's an entirely different argument. When did we stop debating what this thread was made for?
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Fuck all, that's it everyone go home show's over.
Rational thought as been debunked go to bed already.
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If god exists outside of time and space then the concept of past, present, and future doesn't exist for him, all events are known to him simultaneously. If your future is known by god you can't act otherwise than what is already known by god and you don't have free will, just the illusion of it.
If free will doesn't exist then you have a lot of explaining to do on how this god let the "fall of man" occur and why he allows hell to exist, along with evil in this world.
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Ah, my bad. I was trying to say something independent of his comment.
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Not every theist believes in predestiny. Wouldn't make much sense either to have a reward for good deeds and punishment for bad deeds if you're locked in to one or the other from birth, would it? Again, denominational beliefs have little bearing on whether or not Facepunch is too hard on religion at large.
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I think Satan explains the evil part.
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Of course that wouldn't make sense.. now you might be seeing where I'm getting at with this.
I know that many theists believe in free will, but they will virtually always agree that god is all knowing, and I'm arguing that there is a logical contradiction between the existence of an all knowing god and free will.
Well it really doesn't, because then you have to explain why Satan was able to exist in the first place, given that the future was known to god, and why an all powerful god allows him to steal his creations souls to torture them for eternity.
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Or just good old fashioned evil human beings. I think atheists can recognize that men can be evil out of their own volition.
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Then why were we created with such a glaring flaw like the capacity to do evil things? Are you arguing that god didn't see these things coming despite being all knowing?
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God gave all of His creations free will. Satan has this free will and can inflict his injustices upon this world.
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And if you look at my other posts you would see that I've been arguing against that claim.
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Knowing the future doesn't mean dictating the future
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So if he knows a child is going to be raped tomorrow why won't he stop it? He was willing to kill off the Earth's entire population in a flood but he's not willing to step in, even in the most subtle way that doesn't reveal his existence, to stop the rape tomorrow?
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Because if evil didn't exist there would be no point in heaven and hell? If this life is shitty but temporary and if you're good the one after is perfect why would this life be perfect?
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I've argued this point before (in one of your threads too, Noble). God has a plan in the end. How we get there is another matter. There is a series of paths anyone can take, correct or incorrect, but we all reach it in the end with death. Where we go when we die is determined by how we live. If we were wholesome, generally good people, then we probably go to Heaven. If we were murderers, theives, generally bad people, then Hell it is.
God knows about all of our paths. He merely put us on Earth to see how we act and if we were worthy of Heaven.
I remember talking about this to someone a while ago and he then said that we were all previously in Heaven, but when Satan began his takeover, God placed us on Earth to see whether or not we were on His side as humans.
I'm not sure if I agree with this theory, but I felt that it was worth bringing up.
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That doesn't address why this god allows hell to exist in the first place though. And it's basically in other words just admitting that god allows evil in the world.
Bertrand Russell also had a response to this argument:
-Bertrand Russell, Why I am not a Christian
Again this doesn't address why god allows a place as horrible as Hell to exist given that he's all powerful. On top of that, it doesn't explain evils of the natural world, like earthquakes and hurricanes. It's also saying that god allows evil (like murder), which is going to "test" a person's actions at an innocent person's expense (their life in the case of murder).
