[Sickle]

Mon posted:

i wasn't making a point about me being an atheist, i was making a point about you making us look bad.
like, i hope you realize that people won't want to affiliate with / become atheists if they think we're a bunch of assholes

also: the holocaust was not started by a religious group. you seriously should know that.
also jews were considered a race, rather than a religious group.

Yeah but you said it twice, assuming it would affect the arguement.

You will find it in*Mein Kampf.- "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."

Hitler said it again at a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926: "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews . . . The work that Christ started but could not finish, I--Adolf Hitler--will conclude."

In a Reichstag speech in 1938, Hitler again echoed the religious origins of his crusade. "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work. "

Hitler regarded himself as a Catholic until he died. "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so," he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals, in 1941.

Religion played a major role in Hitler's rise to power. He got many votes be mentioning this stuff.

[Mon]

Sickle posted:

Yeah but you said it twice, assuming it would affect the arguement.

not really

also, the catholic church itself didn't support the holocaust. (their opposition could have been stronger though)

The noted biographer of Adolf Hitler, Joachim Fest, wrote that; " At first the Church was quite hostile and its bishops energetically denounced the "false doctrines" of the Nazis. Its opposition weakened considerably in the following years [after the Concordat] [-] Cardinal Bertram developed an ineffectual protest system [-] Resistance..remained largely a matter of individual conscience. In general they [both churches] attempted merely to assert their own rights and only rarely issued pastoral letters or declarations indicating any fundamental objection to Nazi ideology."[3]

you also have to keep in mind that there was already a background of antisemitism in germany, that stretched far before hitler rose to power. his catholicism was really just to ensure he would be elected - it was nothing more than an appeal to the majority (a lot of modern politicians do the same thing anyway)

some reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6...on_with_Nazism

Edited:

this is steering further and further from the topic anyway. the point is, antitheism is not the answer. it makes atheists look bad, causes unnecessary conflicts, brews spite, and it doesn't help anyone.

[EurofanBMW]

I wasn't being sarcastic.

[Patriarch]

S31-Syntax posted:

How am I supposed to know?

Considering that you face eternal damnation in Hell, I would want to be pretty confident.

[Sickle]

Mon posted:

not really

also, the catholic church itself didn't support the holocaust. (their opposition could have been stronger though)


you also have to keep in mind that there was already a background of antisemitism in germany, that stretched far before hitler rose to power. his catholicism was really just to ensure he would be elected - it was nothing more than an appeal to the majority (a lot of modern politicians do the same thing anyway)

some reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6...on_with_Nazism

Edited:

this is steering further and further from the topic anyway. the point is, antitheism is not the answer. it makes atheists look bad, causes unnecessary conflicts, brews spite, and it doesn't help anyone.

Religion does all of those things, why can't I be against it?

[Mon]

Sickle posted:

Religion does all of those things, why can't I be against it?

case in point. i'm not going to keep going because you don't seem like you want to listen

[S31-Syntax]

Patriarch posted:

Considering that you face eternal damnation in Hell, I would want to be pretty confident.

You are missing the point. How am I supposed to "know" that my interpretation is right? Its called a belief. I believe that my interpretation is more right than others, but there is no way that I'm just "right".

[Bat-shit]

Patriarch posted:

Considering that you face eternal damnation in Hell, I would want to be pretty confident.

The reality of hell and heaven is death.

[Sickle]

Mon posted:

case in point. i'm not going to keep going because you don't seem like you want to listen

No fucking shit.

Edited:

S31-Syntax posted:

You are missing the point. How am I supposed to "know" that my interpretation is right? Its called a belief. I believe that my interpretation is more right than others, but there is no way that I'm just "right".

That's the whole deal.

[S31-Syntax]

Sickle posted:

That's the whole deal.

I don't get it.

[Pirate Jok3r]

Found this on the facebukes, my first sighting of religious related arguing in the real internet.



Majestic.

[Noble]

dude im not a christian im a lutheran jack ass

Nice.

[The_J_Hat]

-snip-

[Pirate Jok3r]

The_J_Hat posted:

Josh Hughes and Co. don't seem to be very bright.

How you do that? I'm not josh by the way, but what? Can you just open in layers in photoshop or something? If you see all the shapes it's because I'm terrible at making shapes.

[Bobv2]

Pirate Jok3r posted:

How you do that? I'm not josh by the way, but what? Can you just open in layers in photoshop or something?

10/10 censoring

[Pirate Jok3r]

Aw shoot, now I'm vulnerable to the whole internets.

I'm really bad with the rectangle tool.

Edited:

really am not josh

[Liem]

I don't mind Religion, I'm an Atheist. However I don't go around screaming there is no god, I respect other peoples Beliefs. However I will not tolerate you trying to shove your religion down my throat

[ECrownofFire]

Sickle posted:

Religion does all of those things, why can't I be against it?

Guns don't kill people...

[Patriarch]

ECrownofFire posted:

Guns don't kill people...

But they're made to kill.

[Bat-shit]

Patriarch posted:

He flooded the earth. That's sounds like an intervention if I've ever heard one.

Bat-shit posted:

What are you saying? Who flooded the earth? God?

It's not like there aren't other crazy natural phenomenons, so how come a flooding is now important? Because of Noah? I don't think Noah ever gathered up (all?) the animals on a boat, but it's not like people haven't done crazy things either.

Hey you kind of forgot about our argument by not responding after I questioned your.. flooding stuff. So what's up?

[Patriarch]

Bat-shit posted:

Hey you kind of forgot about our argument by not responding after I questioned your.. flooding stuff. So what's up?

Your arguments make no sense.
Whose side are you even on?

[Bat-shit]

And you saying "He flooded the Earth, one example of how God has intervened" makes so much sense, yeah..

[Chrille]

Bat-shit posted:

And you saying "He flooded the Earth, one example of how God has intervened" makes so much sense, yeah..

It does. Literally everybody else gets it. If you argue against or for the Christian god, you mainly use examples from the Bible, because it informs us of his behavior. In the Bible God interferes with Human affairs when he floods the Earth.

[ECrownofFire]

Patriarch posted:

But they're made to kill.

It's a fucking analogy.

If you want something better to compare it to, it's a knife.

[Chrille]

And nobody argues from the point of view that it actually happened, if that is what you believe.

Edited:

gosh darn automerge

[Bat-shit]

So, what exactly people argue for, or against here?

The only thing I've tried to argue is that regardless of bibles and shit, God doesn't exist outside of our heads. Never will, never has.

But "God does work his wonders" from inside out, like in some wars for example where afterlife/God was used as encouragement for soldiers to keep on fighting.. you know?

[Rad McCool]

Bat-shit posted:

God doesn't exist outside of our heads. Never will, never has.

But is it impossible for a God/higher power to actually exist?

[ECrownofFire]

Bat-shit posted:

The only thing I've tried to argue is that regardless of bibles and shit, God doesn't exist outside of our heads. Never will, never has.

Stop talking right now and think about what you just said.

[Chrille]

Bat-shit posted:

So, what exactly people argue for, or against here?

The only thing I've tried to argue is that regardless of bibles and shit, God doesn't exist outside of our heads. Never will, never has.

But "God does work his wonders" from inside out, like in some wars for example where afterlife/God was used as encouragement for soldiers to keep on fighting.. you know?

Patriarch is arguing against God, but from a hypothetical perspective of IF God existed (and the Bible as the only source on information about him).

[Bat-shit]

Rad McCool posted:

But is it impossible for a God/higher power to actually exist?

Edit, okay. Obviously it is possible for an extraterrestrial lifepower to exist that is more "higher and powerful" than us, humans.

But a God, just to simply put: no

[Rad McCool]

No. What are you talking about.

[Noble]

Bat-shit posted:

Or wait.. this doesn't make any sense to anybody either?

nope

[znk666]

Of course there's some probability that a general higher power/God exists.
But what i can assure you of is that none of the god's mentioned in any of the current existing ''holy'' scriptures exists.

[Megafan]

Rad McCool posted:

But is it impossible for a God/higher power to actually exist?

Certainly not impossible, it's just that there's been no evidence that suggests that one does exist.

[Rad McCool]

Megafanx13 posted:

Certainly not impossible, it's just that there's been no evidence that suggests that one does exist.

But what about the testimony of millions, if not billions, of people?
How can we rightfully dismiss it, when all we have done is disproved something supernatural using natural methods?
Especially when the science we use itself is far from complete.

[Noble]

Rad McCool posted:

But what about the testimony of millions, if not billions, of people?
How can we rightfully dismiss it, when all we have done is disproved something supernatural using natural methods?
Especially when the science we use itself is far from complete.

What testimony is this exactly could you give some examples?

And when did we disprove the supernatural using science? (assuming that's what you mean by natural methods)

[Captain Chalky]

There is no point arguing over religion. One simply can not prove that a god does exist, but also can not prove that a god doesn't exist.
Ludwig Wittgenstein once said that "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.". People have hard time accepting that fact and have some strange need to try and prove other people wrong and themselves right.

Nobody is being too hard on religion, people are just being people.

[Noble]

Captain Chalky posted:

There is no point arguing over religion. One simply can not prove that a god does exist, but also can not prove that a god doesn't exist.

Yes, you can prove that god exists and you can prove god doesn't exist using logical arguments, this is what theologians and philosophers have been trying to do as far back as Ancient Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existen...istence_of_God
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existen...istence_of_God

[Sickle]

Rad McCool posted:

But what about the testimony of millions, if not billions, of people?
How can we rightfully dismiss it, when all we have done is disproved something supernatural using natural methods?
Especially when the science we use itself is far from complete.

Testimony doesn't mean anything if there is nothing else proving it.

It's like being in court, and five people are saying that John committed a crime. And that's it. There's no weapon, no victim, nothing.

[Smeetin]

Nobody here has either a high enough understanding in philosophy, science, or theology to argue this stuff. Not that it would matter anyways.