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Post #281
Both of these are completely incorrect.
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I find it quite ironic how facepunch generally denounces bigots and the such, but is, in general, completely bigoted towards religion and religious people, when it really isn't so black and white.
Edited:
How were the Nazi's religiously motivated?
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Aside from the quotes mentioned on the last page, here is a picture of the belt buckles that were issued to Nazi soldiers.
http://i.imgur.com/xqsgo.jpg
It says "God with us"
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Please ignore the fact that it says, 'Christianity originated in Aryan religious tradition', and only address that which you see unfit for quoting. The rest is there to show, 'The book became popular, especially in Germany.'
As in, it did affect the population.
But it's fine, continue retarding the progress of this argument.
I'm arguing that Christianity aided in the upheaval of Hitler and co. in Germany, and that he was Roman Catholic, and wanted to unite the country using that religion, but ultimately wanted a religion free Germany.
You sure know how to ignore every point presented, don't you. Stop assuming some stupid stance like, 'either way, you're trying to argue that christianity itself is bad because hitler used it', and learn to fucking read the previous posts.
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1. I'm pantheist and was raised in a Christian household by Christian parents. YEP, I'M OBVIOUSLY BRAINWASHED.
2. Pantheism. Yes, there's SO much that doesn't make me question the world. Because pantheism definitely doesn't make me want to discover more about my own fucking gods.
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The majority of people are susceptible to religious bullshit/brainwashing/indoctrination.
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And...?
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Unless you're fat enough to contain seven billion people, they all won't be just like you.
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Read
andSimski posted:
Simski posted:
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I don't give a fuck if people believe, honestly, but I think religion (or at least Santorum) should sort of stay out of politics. I understand why people think abortion is bad because God and all, but we're in 2012 not in 100 AC.
Edited:
My grandma is religious and I'd always listen to her prayers she'd do when I went to bed because it's actually pretty calming.
Once, when I was 12 or so, I asked her: "Do you really believe there is someone up there who created Earth and tells us what to do?" All she said was "We'll talk about this later, okay?" She still hasn't answered my question.
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[citation needed]
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You're still assuming that all 83 percent were indoctrinated into it.
Edited:
I'm sorry, but thinking that organized religion is going to go away is just plain ignorant. It's just another power structure. Some use it for good, some use it for bad.
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I'm sorry if I don't see another reason why stupidity runs rampant in one of the most recently formed countries.
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I'm not expecting it to go away. It can stay, but it damn well better not try to impose its views on my government or I will have a very good reason to not want it around.
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This is why I think that the answer to the OP question is yes.
You seem to have no trouble presenting your own interpretation of some statistics (based on your own opinion) as if it's a fact. If you did that with any other subject, or the same subject but being positive towards religion, you'd have somebody shouting at you very quickly. Shouldn't this sort of thing be frowned upon, regardless of the subject?
I have no idea what the percentage of Christians get there by indoctrination, but I'm pretty sure that you don't either. I don't even know if there is a reliable way to find out.
In my own opinion: A. There are a great deal of Christians who come from non-religious backgrounds, and B. Forcing kids to go to church is more likely to stop them becoming a Christian, than if you let them make up their own minds.
I'm willing to believe that these opinions are skewed by my experiences in the area that I live in and due to the fact that I'm one of those Christians with a non-religious background. It's probably also skewed just by the fact that I am a Christian, so my thoughts about the church tend to be biased towards the positive. It's very difficult to have a completely unbiased opinion, because you have to see every side equally. I think it's nearly impossible to see every side of something as big as religion, as it can be completely different from place to place, depending on the people that are part of it.
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And I'm sorry that you're ignoring a good portion of reality.
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You just need to find statistics of how many people follow the same religion as their parents.
I haven't seen a study like this, but I presume a huge number of people are the same religion as their parents. This would be explained by how susceptible children are to indoctrination. I would say these people didn't really choose to believe in God because it was the only option presented to them.
Edited:
It's not like some bible humping parents are going to present an array of religions including Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, and atheism and then explain the pros and cons of each. They're going to say JESUS LOVES YOU, ACCEPT HIM AS YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR.
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It would be nice if every parent allowed their child to be open minded, presenting the facts and then letting their child decide for themselves what to believe. However in reality, you know this doesn't happen. The baby will be baptized, sent off to Sunday school and/or CCD programs to learn about Jesus and get threats of hell pounded into their head early on.
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i don't think we're ready for mass atheism, we're simply too stupid.
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Just get the amount of children that are 'religious'
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It's funny, because that trash has nothing to do with reality.
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you can never be too hard on religion.
spirituality, though, that's something completely different.
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You only have free will if you do the opposite of what others tell you to do? Tell me, please, how you believe that is a logical argument.
Edited:
you too, mister makes-up-statistics
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I thought it was common knowledge that Hitler was a religious zealot and that his speeches most usually consisted of zealotry.
Then again that's not exactly taught in public schools. They show him speaking but they never provide subtitles for a reason.
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I didn't mean that everyone who has the same religion as their parents was indoctrinated. But if something like 90-95% of people follow the same belief you could say something is going on. That's not implying 90% are indoctrinated, but many of them are.
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'many' is not a statistic and 'a lot' is not reliable
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And that's funny, because last time I checked, religion still fucking exists.
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Sarah Palin, Rick Santorum and Rick Perry.
This is why. Keep your religion out of the government and keep it to yourself. Don't agree with gay marriage don't have one.
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As a Christian in Europe, Im usually forced to recognize that some people inside Christianity look upon different people with prejudice and try to justify their intolerance of what's different with quotes from the bible.
On the other hand I also hear lots of unfair generalizations upon Christians too. Most of them accusing us of being homophobic, Creationists, Child Molesters, fundamentalists. It's almost like how romans saw the Christians back then.
The Bible also has lots of disturbing episodes in it, true, but when you come to think of it, most of that stuff is to be analyzed according to the cultures of the peoples of that time.
I strongly believe that this is more a problem of western society than a problem with religion itself.
Now, touching the core of Christianity, it's easy to see that there's a very intense and good message behind all the splendour and wonder of the churches, the popes, that Heaven and Hell dilemma and so on.
You see, apart from all the miracles and "magic tricks" - that most people (believers and non believers) think it's the core of Christianity - we have to look at Jesus from a historical point of view.
We're talking about a Roman Occupied middle east, we're talking about slavery, hard labour, etc etc.
Roman society had total disregard for what we call today human rights and Hebrew society had an excessive zeal with their religion and costumes, and Jesus came to peacefully oppose all those abuses. We're talking about unwanted newborn babies thrown to the woods, slavery, throwing old people and sick people to die in the desert, sacrifices in the name of false bloodthirsty gods and on the other hand we had the Hebrew people who was very fundamentalist and enforced their ways on everybody.
Jesus Christ came to put an end to that, he came to say that a slave is the same as any other roman, that women don't deserve to be stoned to death, that the sick should be treated fairly and that one should also work on the sabbath. As a hebrew he used to heal in the sabbath. He denied all the mighty and powerful gods and said there was only one humble and complacent god that only wanted us to be there for each-other as equals despite how different we are.
Basically he came to tell us what TODAY we already know but back then wasn't important. He brought hope to an oppressed and helpless people and in the end was crucified for it.
And we can only imagine how powerful were his actions and words by the thinks that were written about him and by the movement he created around him and his death.
After the Death of Christ millions of people converted to Christianity despite the consequences (Death). Whenever there was a plague in Rome, doctors used to escape it while chirstians helped heal the plague victims. When a child would be abandoned in the woods, Christians would adopt that child. And so on.
That is the true message of christianity and not that "Miracle & Magic Heaven and Hell" bullshit that most fundamentalists shove on everyone's face.
So, yes, sometimes I feel there is prejudice upon the church from some people and vice versa. I don't feel it's a problem with religion. Just idiocy from both sides and good old intolerance for what is different.
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You still haven't proved your point that none of the 83% of religious people in America have been indoctrinated.
Edited:
U.S. Pop.; 313,025,262 (83% of this is 259 810 967 (Religious))
Families with own children under 18; 34,588,368 (278,436,894 non families)
And if 83% of that is religious; 28,708,345
That's the potential amount for indoctrinated children.
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Wait wait wait, what is that thing that theists are always told about on this forum? Burden of proof?
You seem to be the one claiming that somewhere between "all" and "most" of these people are indoctrinated.
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So just because people pray, attend church, and identify with religion means we're all just a bunch of mindless slaves brainwashed by our parents?
And you say that people are being stupid...
Numbers don't mean anything.
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so are you saying that all religious people are indocrinated?
that seems more than a little closed minded
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Po
Ten
Tial
Edited:
I'm speculating, and have given evidence and support of my claim.
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As a not-so-devout Christian, I don't think you are too hard on religion. Heck, you don't run through the streets slaughtering us, do you?
On the real, we don't all have to be so condescending to each other. I've had plenty of atheist friends whom I've gotten along with perfectly well. We just hung out and everything was dandy. Of course I was younger then, but I'm optimistic enough to believe that would still be the case today. The trouble is when people assemble on internet forums to try to maliciously, sometimes militantly, disprove what they disagree with.
Achieve true separation of church and state and be satisfied; if a religious nut-job tries to convert you, kindly request that they leave you alone. If they don't leave you alone... Shame on them.
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Quoting the total percentage of religious citizens is no more evidence of or support for indoctrination than quoting the total percentage of high school dropouts is evidence of or support for drug use as a cause. Saying "this amount of people in America is religious, therefore most of them are indoctrinated" makes as little sense as saying "this amount of people dropped out of high school, therefore most of them smoked pot."
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Except if you read the fucking post, I showed the amount of religious families with CHILDREN UNDER 18.
I then stated 'That's the potential amount for indoctrinated children.'
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I think it's fair to call anyone under 18 who is Christian and has Christian parents indoctrinated.
Indoctrination is defined as: teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically.
The uncritically part is important because Christianity would look silly to anyone with just an ounce of critical thought.
There is a lot to be said about having something so blatantly false shoved down a child's throat they'll believe the lie until they die. Many parents even get their kids to believe in Santa, but they mercifully let them in on the joke.
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There we go. Read this post before you other guys respond.
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The potential for something in this context literally has zero value in a discussion. (unless it's quantum physics, then it's very important!)
Edited:
You say that, but simply put, you have no proof of it. I can just as easily say that it's fair to say anyone under 18 who is atheist and has atheist parents are indoctrinated. (I don't believe this, but it holds the same value)
