[RobbL]

Xenocidebot posted:

Well, yes, considering:
-Your first sentence is, by definition, wrong, unless you have a very odd definition of "obvious", since gender involves gender roles, behavioral patterns, etc., which are rather apparent

And regarding this, I think through the eyes of a 2 year old the line between theobservable gender-wise differences between males and females is a very blurred one

[Kyle902]

RobbL posted:

Btw, all i'm saying is that in my opinion children as young as 2 don't have a good grasp of the concept of gender and therefore cannot decide for sure that their gender does not match their sex
Yes they may show certain symptoms, but how can they tie these down to the fact that they may be transgender? To some extent how can their parents? These symptoms could be down to any number psychological conditions and mental disorders.
That's all i'm saying.

You act like you know more then professionals or people who have actual experience with GID. I have consulted my grandfather on the subject for a while now. He's been a mental health professional for around 20 years. I'm tempted to make him post in this thread just to silence the stupidity.

[Alice3173]

RobbL posted:

Btw, all i'm saying is that in my opinion children as young as 2 don't have a good grasp of the concept of gender and therefore cannot decide for sure that their gender does not match their sex
Yes they may show certain symptoms, but how can they tie these down to the fact that they may be transgender? To some extent how can their parents? These symptoms could be down to any number psychological conditions and mental disorders.
That's all i'm saying.

Yeah, cause your well thought out opinion is obviously more thoroughly thought out than the scientific facts thousands of people have devoted their lives to figuring out.

Onyx3173 posted:

Quit it. Seriously. Provide SCIENTIFIC fucking proof supporting what you are saying. Quit acting like an idiot or leave the thread and don't come back. It's not that difficult.

[Kyle902]

RobbL posted:

And regarding this, I think through the eyes of a 2 year old the observable gender-wise differences between males and females is a very blurred line

You're nitpicking what parts of arguments you respond to. If you have no interest in the process of debate then be gone.

[RobbL]

I'm not nitpicking, that point expresses a large part of my argument
And regarding everything else, just because something has potential evidence doesnt mean you can't argue against it

[Kyle902]

RobbL posted:

I'm not nitpicking, that point expresses a large part of my argument
And regarding everything else, just because something has potential evidence doesnt mean you can't argue against it

Way to mitigate the importance of hundreds of medical studies as "potential evidence". There is no potential. It is evidence.

[Alice3173]

RobbL posted:

I'm not nitpicking, that point expresses a large part of my argument
And regarding everything else, just because something has potential evidence doesnt mean you can't argue against it

I think you're mixing up your poorly reasoned opinions and scientific evidence.

[RobbL]

Kyle902 posted:

Way to mitigate the importance of hundreds of medical studies as "potential evidence". There is no potential. It is evidence.

What I meant is evidence has the potential not to be correct

[Kyle902]

RobbL posted:

What I meant is evidence has the potential not to be correct

You know that applies to all evidence for everything including gravity right.

[Xenocidebot]

RobbL posted:

And regarding this, I think through the eyes of a 2 year old the line between theobservable gender-wise differences between males and females is a very blurred one

Except, if you would finish reading my post, you're wrong.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/917990-overview#aw2aab6b3 posted:

Eventually, the concept of gender constancy develops in the growing child. This refers to the ability of a child to concretely differentiate between the genders, frequently occurring by age 2 years, at which time the first expressions of gender identity are commonly made.

[Sobotnik]

How effective is gender changing surgery now if done before/on the onset of puberty anyways? It seems to be improving with technological advances.

[RobbL]

Kyle902 posted:

You know that applies to all evidence for everything including gravity right.

The evidence for gravity is solid- we can observe its effects. But the evidence were talking about here is much more ambiguous and there are many many variables involved in getting it

[Alice3173]

RobbL posted:

What I meant is evidence has the potential not to be correct

And your terribly reasoned opinion is has even more potential to not be correct.

[Megafan]

RobbL posted:

What I meant is evidence has the potential not to be correct

Anything has the potential to be/become incorrect, but that doesn't mean you should assume it is, especially not as the basis for an argument.

[RobbL]

I admit I do get carried away arguing online, especially with stuff like this.
The problem with the issue of gender is it's so bloody confusing to people who aren't experts in the area.
As I understand it gender is masculinity and femininity. A transgender is someone who's gender does not match their sex. However, a gay man who is very feminine is not a transgender. There's something not quite right there.
A transgender is referred to as both a male and a female depending on the context. Now we all know with any species more complex than fish an organism is either male or female.
There's so many contradictions like this within the common knowledge of this subject and that's where most of the arguments on it spring up.
Also, so often the facts are warped by political correctness and stuff like that which doesnt help

[Helix Alioth]

RobbL posted:

What I meant is evidence has the potential not to be correct

It doesn't matter whether something has the potential "not to be correct" (I like how you use a bunch of prepositions to make your argument sound intelligent), what matters is what leads to more happiness and less depression. Allow me to break this down for you:

If the child is allowed to decide her gender no permanent damage is made, if you seriously want to control what makes up someones personality you're moving into the category of thought police.
If the child is allowed to start puberty suppression at ~8 no permanent damage is made, everything is only paused and puberty immediately starts progressing as soon as the medication is stopped.
If the child is not allowed to start puberty suppression at ~8 she will suffer from dysphoria of that which you can't even comprehend.
If the child is allowed to start hormones at ~15 and has felt that she was in fact a she for a reasonable amount of time (something like 4 years) she'll be able to live as herself and stop a constant torture that spanned across ~13 years. If she regrets doing this once she's an adult she has bigger things to worry about than her appearance (sanity).
If the child is not allowed to start hormones and she truly is a she, she'll be depressed, anxious, socially isolated, and suicidal, with the chances of suicide increasing over time.

[Alice3173]

RobbL posted:

As I understand it gender is masculinity and femininity. A transgender is someone who's gender does not match their sex. However, a gay man who is very feminine is not a transgender. There's something not quite right there.

That's not correct. Gender is the mental aspect of sex basically. A feminine gay guy could still have a masculine mind whereas a mtf transgender person would have a male body but a female mind.

[thisispain]

RobbL posted:

Also, so often the facts are warped by political correctness and stuff like that which doesnt help

political correctness?
no-one's gonna take you seriously if you use Rush Limbaugh's words

[RobbL]

Onyx3173 posted:

That's not correct. Gender is the mental aspect of sex basically. A feminine gay guy could still have a masculine mind whereas a mtf transgender person would have a male body but a female mind.

Ah ok.
To me what you're saying sounds like masculinity and femininity can be contrary to gender, and as well as that I already know gender can be contrary to sex. Now this implies that gender does not determine masculine or feminine behaviour which contradicts loads of stuff said. Someone quoted from some source earlier that said at 2 children can differentiate between gender, but going by what you said gender is shouldn't the quote say masculine and feminine behaviour or sex instead of gender? It's confusing haha.

Edited:

thisispain posted:

political correctness?
no-one's gonna take you seriously if you use Rush Limbaugh's words

Who?

[The Baconator]

RobbL posted:

Who?

you don't wanna know

[RobbL]

The Baconator posted:

you don't wanna know

Are they American?

[nekosune]

RobbL posted:

Are they American?

Yes, and sadly, there is almost an 'of course'

[thisispain]

[RobbL]

nekosune posted:

Yes, and sadly, there is almost an 'of course'

Ah ok, nevermind then

Edited:

Btw- one more opinion...
Now I know I'm going to get a barrage of boxes but honesty I think transgenders have a tendency to be self entitled, especially when put in the context of people born with imo worse problems like horrible deformaties and what have you.
I can appreciate that many transgenders go through terrible stuff, but I do feel that wherever I go the transgender brigade are riding on a giant hyperbole

[Kyle902]

RobbL posted:

Ah ok, nevermind then

Edited:

Btw- one more opinion...
Now I know I'm going to get a barrage of boxes but honesty I think transgenders have a tendency to be self entitled, especially when put in the context of people born with imo worse problems like horrible deformaties and what have you.
I can appreciate that many transgenders go through terrible stuff, but I do feel that wherever I go the transgender brigade are riding on a giant hyperbole

I get the feeling you should watch your mouth lest you blurt out the blemish on humanity that is your brain.

Seriously thats just a modified "Children in Africa" argument.

[Megafan]

RobbL posted:

I can appreciate that many transgenders go through terrible stuff, but I do feel that wherever I go the transgender brigade are riding on a giant hyperbole

It's probably best you stop. That's not something people need to hear.

[nekosune]

RobbL posted:

Ah ok, nevermind then

Edited:

Btw- one more opinion...
Now I know I'm going to get a barrage of boxes but honesty I think transgenders have a tendency to be self entitled, especially when put in the context of people born with imo worse problems like horrible deformaties and what have you.
I can appreciate that many transgenders go through terrible stuff, but I do feel that wherever I go the transgender brigade are riding on a giant hyperbole

by daring to mention they are going through horrible stuff too? yes, thats true, does it change transgender'd situation in any way that being true? no. Yes there is worse, there is also a lot more better things. Just because it is not the worst thing ever to happen, does not mean it is not horrible thing to go through.

[Mr. Smartass]

I don't know why everyone's getting all worked up about this.
While yes, some of the younger ones might be way too young, not all teenagers are immature enough to make this kind of decision.

[Alice3173]

RobbL posted:

Btw- one more opinion...
Now I know I'm going to get a barrage of boxes but honesty I think transgenders have a tendency to be self entitled, especially when put in the context of people born with imo worse problems like horrible deformaties and what have you.
I can appreciate that many transgenders go through terrible stuff, but I do feel that wherever I go the transgender brigade are riding on a giant hyperbole

Do you ever read your posts through before submitting them to make sure they're not really dumb or potentially offensive? Cause if not then you should try doing that.

[Jetblack357]

thisispain posted:

talk about being judgmental.
maybe you guys should read-up on something before ejaculating and defecating your opinions?

A lot of them are right though.
A child has no place making these kinds of decisions.

(User was banned for this post ("History of threadshitting w/regard to transgender issues (3rd offense)" - Megafan))

[Megafan]

Jetblack357 posted:

A lot of them are right though.
A child has no place making these kinds of decisions.

You did not just post without reading the thread, did you?

Seriously?

[Skelmech]

Jetblack357 posted:

A lot of them are right though.
A child has no place making these kinds of decisions.

oh

jetblack

ugh

[Alice3173]

Megafan posted:

You did not just post without reading the thread, did you?

Seriously?

Jetblack is worth ignoring in these threads. He admitted somewhere along the quote tree of this post that he purposefully makes stupid posts because he finds it funny. Most specifically in this post though.

[Megafan]

Onyx3173 posted:

Jetblack is worth ignoring in these threads. He admitted somewhere along the quote tree of this post that he purposefully makes stupid posts because he finds it funny. Most specifically in this post though.

I could've guessed by the emoticon. He's out of line here.

[Boxbot219]

Jetblack357 posted:

A lot of them are right though.
A child has no place making these kinds of decisions.

So you believe this child has no place in making the decision to be evaluated by a trained doctor to go through puberty blocking therapy when he begins to go through puberty.

[Da_Maniac_]

RobbL posted:

Ah ok, nevermind then

Edited:

Btw- one more opinion...
Now I know I'm going to get a barrage of boxes but honesty I think transgenders have a tendency to be self entitled, especially when put in the context of people born with imo worse problems like horrible deformaties and what have you.
I can appreciate that many transgenders go through terrible stuff, but I do feel that wherever I go the transgender brigade are riding on a giant hyperbole

Just because it could be worse doesn't mean you can't complain.

[Impact1986]

As long as those kids are diagnosed with it by a proven procedure, I am ok with this.

[FlakAttack]

RobbL posted:

Btw- one more opinion...
Now I know I'm going to get a barrage of boxes but honesty I think transgenders have a tendency to be self entitled, especially when put in the context of people born with imo worse problems like horrible deformaties and what have you.
I can appreciate that many transgenders go through terrible stuff, but I do feel that wherever I go the transgender brigade are riding on a giant hyperbole

You know, there are studies that actually say transgender surgery is not an effective solution for many cases of gender identity disorder right? You don't have to say stupid things like this to fight it. Now you just look bad.

[HorizoN]

Helix Alioth posted:

It doesn't matter whether something has the potential "not to be correct" (I like how you use a bunch of prepositions to make your argument sound intelligent), what matters is what leads to more happiness and less depression. Allow me to break this down for you:

If the child is allowed to decide her gender no permanent damage is made, if you seriously want to control what makes up someones personality you're moving into the category of thought police.
If the child is allowed to start puberty suppression at ~8 no permanent damage is made, everything is only paused and puberty immediately starts progressing as soon as the medication is stopped.
If the child is not allowed to start puberty suppression at ~8 she will suffer from dysphoria of that which you can't even comprehend.
If the child is allowed to start hormones at ~15 and has felt that she was in fact a she for a reasonable amount of time (something like 4 years) she'll be able to live as herself and stop a constant torture that spanned across ~13 years. If she regrets doing this once she's an adult she has bigger things to worry about than her appearance (sanity).
If the child is not allowed to start hormones and she truly is a she, she'll be depressed, anxious, socially isolated, and suicidal, with the chances of suicide increasing over time.

It's two years over here in Canada.

[Skelmech]

FlakAttack posted:

You know, there are studies that actually say transgender surgery is not an effective solution for many cases of gender identity disorder right? You don't have to say stupid things like this to fight it. Now you just look bad.

I'd like some source on this bullshit you're spewing