1. Post #2481
    Gold Member
    SGTNAPALM's Avatar
    October 2007
    22,414 Posts
    What do you mean?
    We were experimenting with underground tunnels and things like that long before you arrived. We decided to scrap the idea a few months ago.

    The collective "we."
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  2. Post #2482
    RedShift27's Avatar
    November 2008
    32 Posts
    Last time I was here the map had tunnels that served close to no purpose, secret airducts that were unnecessary, and the submarine room.. Dont get me started.q
    Did Garry actually give you guys any reasoning why he doesn't like it anymore or did he just say he doesn't like it anymore?

    Maybe some of those things were what Garry had liked about this map as they made it stand out a bit more from the other generic GM_Construct maps. Yeah, the current version still has new features that make it better than the older GM_Constructs, but it still has a somewhat generic feel. Just my interpretation though.
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  3. Post #2483
    Gold Member
    GoldenBalls's Avatar
    November 2005
    508 Posts
    Did Garry actually give you guys any reasoning why he doesn't like it anymore or did he just say he doesn't like it anymore?

    Maybe some of those things were what Garry had liked about this map as they made it stand out a bit more from the other generic GM_Construct maps. Yeah, the current version still has new features that make it better than the older GM_Constructs, but it still has a somewhat generic feel. Just my interpretation though.
    I personally lost interest in the direction of this map long ago, so I'm not surprised Garry had issues with it.

    For me, it wasn't so much that it was a bad map, just that everything was being executed poorly. The entire thing just seemed like a clusterfudge of ideas thrown into a map that didn't fit, constantly with nothing being refined properly and stupid amounts of time taken on simple unnecessary things.

    The authors had some interesting ideas, but several didn't belong in the map at all.

    I came back to this thread when I noted that the map had been updated to remove such things as the silly tunnel system and submarine area as mentioned before me, but even then it felt like the map was going in circles and not really becoming anything special.

    That and as Max has said, there was so much dramatic behavior involving the treatment of the map.
    Garry showed an interest and as a result the authors were giving every update post an "UPDATE" banner at the top, and responding to everyone like they're technical support at some video game company. The icing on the cake was the massive apology paragraph when Max took over.

    Given Max's history (I still adore his 3D mountains for TF2 as an example), I'm actually once again looking forward to this maps development, and worrying less about the authors themselves.
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  4. Post #2484
    Gold Member
    DaApocalypse's Avatar
    December 2005
    678 Posts
    I agree, this map in its current state just doesn't feel like Construct anymore.

    Max, my biggest request is a complete makeover of those buildings. Preferably custom textures based off the original static model. Their current textures look VERY off. As for soundscapes..the ambiance would be nice but I'm personally against it.

    Feel free to contact me if you need some help with this project.
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  5. Post #2485
    The Cold Wind Of France
    Dennab
    November 2008
    18,691 Posts
    Max, my biggest request is a complete makeover of those buildings. Preferably custom textures based off the original static model. Their current textures look VERY off.
    ... no they don't
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  6. Post #2486
    Gold Member
    SGTNAPALM's Avatar
    October 2007
    22,414 Posts
    Bugs!

    This is the building nearest the spawn, facing the entrance. On the left side, the roof has a lip on it. On the right, it doesn't. Just a minor inconsistency.


    The whole wall here seems to have reflectivity inconsistencies.

    This is extremely nitpicky , but some of your changes to the map made the dark room less dark. Here are original images next to touched up versions, because I've found that if your monitor isn't calibrate correctly it shows up invisible.




  7. Post #2487
    The Cold Wind Of France
    Dennab
    November 2008
    18,691 Posts
    yeah that's because i added fog

  8. Post #2488
    Darkassassin0's Avatar
    January 2012
    216 Posts
    some veary nice shades of black and grey you have there.

    also its not that some monitors aren't calibrated correctly its the contrast ratio on them, newer monitors have a better ratio so its easer to see.
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  9. Post #2489
    Gold Member
    SGTNAPALM's Avatar
    October 2007
    22,414 Posts
    yeah that's because i added fog
    That's some yellow-ass fog in that one area then.

    Edited:

    Standing inside the darkroom exit looking out at the map, this skybox error happens. I can't replicate in any other spots.


    Maybe a bug with garry's new sky shader?

  10. Post #2490
    The Cold Wind Of France
    Dennab
    November 2008
    18,691 Posts
    That's some yellow-ass fog in that one area then.

    Edited:

    Standing inside the darkroom exit looking out at the map, this skybox error happens. I can't replicate in any other spots.


    Maybe a bug with garry's new sky shader?
    oh nah, that's my mistake, I'll fix it
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  11. Post #2491
    The Cold Wind Of France
    Dennab
    November 2008
    18,691 Posts
    New build coming up in an hour or two I fixed some more things, and I added soundscapes!

    They're entirely custom (no HL2 sounds etc), and they're fairly weak in terms of volume... hopefully enough to not be complete dead lifeless silence, yet not too much to not be distracting :)
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  12. Post #2492
    also its not that some monitors aren't calibrated correctly its the contrast ratio on them, newer monitors have a better ratio so its easer to see.

    Eh, my old CRT had better light/dark contrast ratio then my current ASUS monitor.
    Hell, my old main monitor had better contrast ratio (Albeit it was a studio-quality monitor made for editing and it required it)

    As people get more obsessed with different things, color quality and contrast has gone to garbage; One of the main reasons I'm still searching for a reasonably priced 16:9 1080 (or higher) CRT.
    Or, for OLEDS to become the main format, because they change color / brightness almost instantly (in nano-seconds as compared to 2-10 MS current ones do) and they have a REALLY, REALLLLY nice contrast ratio and color quality.
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  13. Post #2493
    Gold Member
    redBadger's Avatar
    November 2008
    15,032 Posts
    New build coming up in an hour or two I fixed some more things, and I added soundscapes!

    They're entirely custom (no HL2 sounds etc), and they're fairly weak in terms of volume... hopefully enough to not be complete dead lifeless silence, yet not too much to not be distracting :)
    Are you recording and mixing your own custom soundscapes? If so, what hardware/software are you using? Just curious, as I'm going into audio engineering.

  14. Post #2494
    The Cold Wind Of France
    Dennab
    November 2008
    18,691 Posts
    Another new build uploading right now

  15. Post #2495
    Gold Member
    redBadger's Avatar
    November 2008
    15,032 Posts
    gee thanks
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  16. Post #2496
    Are you recording and mixing your own custom soundscapes? If so, what hardware/software are you using? Just curious, as I'm going into audio engineering.
    Source's soundscapes are mostly written, my suggestion to you is to look into the soundscapes files already in source.

    As for recording; since you'll be doing a lot of ambient sounds I suggest a non-dynamic microphone, be it ribbon or condenser.

  17. Post #2497
    The Cold Wind Of France
    Dennab
    November 2008
    18,691 Posts
    Are you recording and mixing your own custom soundscapes? If so, what hardware/software are you using? Just curious, as I'm going into audio engineering.
    I mix some public domain sounds from freesound.org along with my own field recordings, made with a philips recording and a sony MD

    i use audacity and sony vegas with a few custom vsts
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  18. Post #2498
    Gold Member
    Butthurter's Avatar
    August 2007
    9,839 Posts
    why was the water texture changed to use cubemap shaders?
    was the previous texture's shaders unable to handle the new skybox system

  19. Post #2499
    Gold Member
    redBadger's Avatar
    November 2008
    15,032 Posts
    Source's soundscapes are mostly written, my suggestion to you is to look into the soundscapes files already in source.

    As for recording; since you'll be doing a lot of ambient sounds I suggest a non-dynamic microphone, be it ribbon or condenser.
    i rarely use dynamic mics but yeah I've been in contact a lot with mike morasky and members of his crew.

    Edited:

    I mix some public domain sounds from freesound.org along with my own field recordings, made with a philips recording and a sony MD

    i use audacity and sony vegas with a few custom vsts
    awesome, thanks.

  20. Post #2500
    The Cold Wind Of France
    Dennab
    November 2008
    18,691 Posts
    why was the water texture changed to use cubemap shaders?
    was the previous texture's shaders unable to handle the new skybox system
    This was reverted two days ago.
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  21. Post #2501
    Gold Member
    Colton Rappe's Avatar
    August 2006
    1,038 Posts
    Some minor modifications were made to the map, most notably, the mirror room lights are now static. This effectively shrunk the map size by half compared to the prior map builds.

    Screenshot taken in Ep2, because gmod 13 is currently broken.


    Some adjustments to the credit room were also made, but very very minor stuff.
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  22. Post #2502
    Gold Member
    GoldenBalls's Avatar
    November 2005
    508 Posts
    Some minor modifications were made to the map, most notably, the mirror room lights are now static. This effectively shrunk the map size by half compared to the prior map builds.

    Screenshot taken in Ep2, because gmod 13 is currently broken.


    Some adjustments to the credit room were also made, but very very minor stuff.
    It was literally doubling the file size?
    Was this recently discovered or something that those working on the map have been aware of?

    It seems really silly to keep a feature that does something like that if it's purely cosmetic,
    so I'm pleased to see it go in favor of something more practical.

    In addition; forgive me for asking, but are you back on the project?
    Your post sort of gives the impression that you did this.

  23. Post #2503
    Gold Member
    highvoltage's Avatar
    May 2009
    1,822 Posts
    Colton and I were never removed from the project, Max was added to the team and did a lot of good work.

    And the file size issue was just us not realizing it until the toggle lights were removed.
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  24. Post #2504
    Gold Member
    GoldenBalls's Avatar
    November 2005
    508 Posts
    Colton and I were never removed from the project, Max was added to the team and did a lot of good work.

    And the file size issue was just us not realizing it until the toggle lights were removed.
    My bad. I suppose I misunderstood.

    I just assumed based on the snipped dramatic post, that you guys had been asked to step down from the project. If anything that posts purpose makes even less sense to me now than before.

    Regardless, with Max's guidance and your previous works on the map, I'm sure three heads will be better than one. We're already off to a good start by effectively cutting the file size in half.

  25. Post #2505
    The Cold Wind Of France
    Dennab
    November 2008
    18,691 Posts
    the build that's shipping with today's update in a few hours is the one right before colton's change there, though
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  26. Post #2506
    Gold Member
    Colton Rappe's Avatar
    August 2006
    1,038 Posts
    It was literally doubling the file size?
    Was this recently discovered or something that those working on the map have been aware of?
    To me, and probably a good bunch of people, this was not a recent realization; it was a necessary evil to deal with when having dynamic lights in the mirror room. Since we opted to remove the dynamic light functionality from the Mirror Room, the HDR -final (only) compile of the map was 28mb.

    With Cubemaps built, it was about 47mb. (We are looking into probably removing cubemaps all together (somehow), they increase the map size, and don't have enough pros to outweigh the cons.) ((Map doubling in size when we buildcubemaps, and odd reflective surfaces being where they shouldn't be, etc.))

    So all-in-all, if we go ahead and keep cubemaps out of the map (somehow), or disable specularity on just the map (somehow), the map size will be effectively around 40mb I suppose, with full LDR and HDR lightmaps baked into it.

  27. Post #2507
    The Cold Wind Of France
    Dennab
    November 2008
    18,691 Posts
    I'm gonna remove reflectivity from the outer walls and lower cubemap resolution, that should do the trick
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  28. Post #2508
    Ask me about my 'female train' fetish.
    Dennab
    January 2006
    5,457 Posts
    It was literally doubling the file size?
    Was this recently discovered or something that those working on the map have been aware of?

    It seems really silly to keep a feature that does something like that if it's purely cosmetic,
    so I'm pleased to see it go in favor of something more practical.

    In addition; forgive me for asking, but are you back on the project?
    Your post sort of gives the impression that you did this.
    For every 1 light that you have it must be calculated. If you have 20 lights all on they are calculated together. But if each of those lights has a on/off setting the mapsize increases hugely because it has to calculate with each one off/on.

    Light 1 on, light 2 off, light 3 off, etc.

    That's why the valve wiki recommends to use as few toggling lights as possible.
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  29. Post #2509
    "Sounds like something Stiffy would say."
    Stiffy360's Avatar
    May 2011
    3,604 Posts
    To me, and probably a good bunch of people, this was not a recent realization; it was a necessary evil to deal with when having dynamic lights in the mirror room. Since we opted to remove the dynamic light functionality from the Mirror Room, the HDR -final (only) compile of the map was 28mb.

    With Cubemaps built, it was about 47mb. (We are looking into probably removing cubemaps all together (somehow), they increase the map size, and don't have enough pros to outweigh the cons.) ((Map doubling in size when we buildcubemaps, and odd reflective surfaces being where they shouldn't be, etc.))

    So all-in-all, if we go ahead and keep cubemaps out of the map (somehow), or disable specularity on just the map (somehow), the map size will be effectively around 40mb I suppose, with full LDR and HDR lightmaps baked into it.
    Well, the random reflections are being caused by the normal maps. The only get reflective in the shadows. To fix this I'd suggest making the normal map into the bump map. (just editing the vmt)

    Cubemaps are good. Just place the ones you need, where you need it. water requires one for simple reflections. As for cubemap size, you can also make the ones that don't really matter, a small texture size like 128, or 256.

  30. Post #2510
    Gold Member
    GoldenBalls's Avatar
    November 2005
    508 Posts
    For every 1 light that you have it must be calculated. If you have 20 lights all on they are calculated together. But if each of those lights has a on/off setting the mapsize increases hugely because it has to calculate with each one off/on.

    Light 1 on, light 2 off, light 3 off, etc.

    That's why the valve wiki recommends to use as few toggling lights as possible.
    I was mainly just confused as to why a feature doubling the file size was being kept in the first place,
    rather than wondering what causes it.

    But thanks for the interesting breakdown.

  31. Post #2511
    Gold Member
    Colton Rappe's Avatar
    August 2006
    1,038 Posts
    Do people find it even remotely interesting to have water in the mirror room?



    Just coming up with design ideas to further the room.

    P.S. As you may have guessed, having water and the mirror in the same room causes the mirror to pork up.
    (Water doesn't render in mirror. Mirror doesnt render when water is on-screen.)

    Removed the water.
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  32. Post #2512
    Gold Member
    Firegod522's Avatar
    March 2008
    11,581 Posts
    Why bother? Usually when you have water in the same PVS as the reflective glass it causes rendering issues because they share the same reflective texture. Unless garry added a new buffer image for the reflective glass. It does seem pretty useless though.
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  33. Post #2513
    Gold Member
    Colton Rappe's Avatar
    August 2006
    1,038 Posts
    How does a small tunnel-loop connected to the mirror room sound? For trains, and the sort.

    Edited:

    I'm currently revising the geometry of every archway in the map. Nothing visually different, just how they are shaped.

    Changing every one of these:


    Into these:


    This is groundbreaking development right here everyone.
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  34. Post #2514
    Gold Member
    HiddenMyst's Avatar
    June 2006
    6,634 Posts
    How does a small tunnel-loop connected to the mirror room sound? For trains, and the sort.

    Edited:

    I'm currently revising the geometry of every archway in the map. Nothing visually different, just how they are shaped.

    Changing every one of these:


    Into these:


    This is groundbreaking development right here everyone.
    Seeing that it makes no difference post-compile, isn't it just wasted time and effort to switch from one person's preferred way of making brushes to another?
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  35. Post #2515
    wasted $2 on a title
    Shoar's Avatar
    June 2007
    1,491 Posts
    Seeing that it makes no difference post-compile, isn't it just wasted time and effort to switch from one person's preferred way of making brushes to another?
    Less faces.
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  36. Post #2516
    To me, and probably a good bunch of people, this was not a recent realization; it was a necessary evil to deal with when having dynamic lights in the mirror room. Since we opted to remove the dynamic light functionality from the Mirror Room, the HDR -final (only) compile of the map was 28mb.

    With Cubemaps built, it was about 47mb. (We are looking into probably removing cubemaps all together (somehow), they increase the map size, and don't have enough pros to outweigh the cons.) ((Map doubling in size when we buildcubemaps, and odd reflective surfaces being where they shouldn't be, etc.))

    So all-in-all, if we go ahead and keep cubemaps out of the map (somehow), or disable specularity on just the map (somehow), the map size will be effectively around 40mb I suppose, with full LDR and HDR lightmaps baked into it.
    Removing cubemaps would be stupid, just reduce the number and manually select what faces they should apply to when they look "odd" or "Broken"

  37. Post #2517
    Gold Member
    Colton Rappe's Avatar
    August 2006
    1,038 Posts
    Removing cubemaps would be stupid, just reduce the number and manually select what faces they should apply to when they look "odd" or "Broken"
    This was my idea, and we used to do that. I might end up doing it again in the very final stages of the map.

  38. Post #2518
    Gold Member
    mil0001's Avatar
    January 2010
    485 Posts
    The birds are lovely additions to the game. But just like real life they don't shut the fuck up.. Maybe some pauses between the sounds or just a few less birds

  39. Post #2519
    A six sided fish cube of the Flounder variety
    TheGoodDoctorF's Avatar
    March 2010
    3,224 Posts
    Hey guys, love the work that's going on here. Made this comic earlier, thought it'd be relevant. Kind of. Also I was to lazy to make a proper ending.
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  40. Post #2520
    Gold Member
    SGTNAPALM's Avatar
    October 2007
    22,414 Posts
    How does a small tunnel-loop connected to the mirror room sound? For trains, and the sort.
    I think we should leave well enough alone. It's too close to the end to begin adding new rooms and features. I think these final weeks should be spent on optimization and polish.
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