1. Post #241
    Jocken300's Avatar
    February 2009
    1,349 Posts
    Lack of an explation for something is not proof of a paranormal event. It merely means that those who have experienced it so far lack a proper understanding of the event. I canguarantee you that if you were to get a physics expert to evaluate the swinging door or vibrating bed (two of the most common "paranormal experiences"), a real, scientific explanation would be discovered for these happenings.

    Adding speculation to the end of your post is irrelevant and unnecessary if you yourself don't even believe it.
    I agree, the lack of an explanation of something isn't proof of a paranormal event, nor have I stated that it is. I never claimed to actually believe in ghosts, all I said was that I am unsure where I stand on the matter due to these things that have happened to me. As I can't explain them, and others have experienced similar things, that's when you start speculating.

  2. Post #242
    DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW EVIDENCE WORKS?



    I done 2 out of 3 years of a forensics science course, I literally fucking eat, breath and shit evidence and trust me, just because people believe in it, doesn't make it proof.

    I'm not sure if you're incapable of understanding what is being said in this thread so I'll strip it to the bare bones and make it as crystal clear as possible.

    Faith in the existence of something, does not lend credence to the existence of the idea. This is because the existence of ghosts, faeries and poltergeists etc is not a subjective factor, something can either exist or not, there is no leeway, your belief doesn't make it real or does it become evidence of it's existence.
    in the abstract:

    If P(H|E) > P(H|E Λ ¬E) then E is evidence for H.

    Edited:

    I agree, the lack of an explanation of something isn't proof of a paranormal event, nor have I stated that it is. I never claimed to actually believe in ghosts, all I said was that I am unsure where I stand on the matter due to these things that have happened to me. As I can't explain them, and others have experienced similar things, that's when you start speculating.
    the problem is that absence of evidence for ghosts is evidence for the absence for ghosts

    if the hypothesis "ghosts exist" leads you to predict X, then you don't observe X to happen, that's a blow for your "ghosts exist" hypothesis

  3. Post #243
    Dennab
    December 2011
    5,623 Posts
    I'm not assuming that it's invisible dead people or creatures from other dimensions. I was simply wildly speculating at the end of my post of what many people experience as dead people could in reality be something completely different and unknown to us.

    Considering that the door didn't just merely open and close itself, but that it rather swung open completely, and slammed completely shut, and then opened itself again, it's pretty safe to assume that it was no ordinary draft. Adding onto that, it first opened, and only when I was about to get off the couch did it close. After that it started opening and closing itself at a very fast speed constantly, with no pauses.

    I've also experienced other things as I said in my post. Last year I could barely sleep for weeks, because whenever I tried to go to bed, my bed would start shaking a lot, as if someone grabbed a hold of it and shook it. My dad could even hear it shaking from downstairs, and would ask me what was going on in my room.

    Again, I'm not directly assuming that this is the result of ghosts (as in dead people or whatever), however I don't have any other explanation for it.
    Question.

    If you were in the basement, and the door started going all 13 ghosts on your ass, how the hell did you get out of the house?

    Edited:

    in the abstract:

    If P(H|E) > P(H|E Λ ¬E) then E is evidence for H.
    Interdasting...

    I literally have no idea how to interpret that man, sorry it's been years since I've done any physics.

  4. Post #244
    Gold Member
    pyschomc's Avatar
    February 2005
    2,622 Posts
    Well
    I've been studying the paranormal for a while.
    It's pretty hard to find empirical evidence for something that isn't physical.

  5. Post #245
    Jocken300's Avatar
    February 2009
    1,349 Posts
    Question.

    If you were in the basement, and the door started going all 13 ghosts on your ass, how the hell did you get out of the house?

    Edited:



    Interdasting...

    I literally have no idea how to interpret that man, sorry it's been years since I've done any physics.
    The door was next to the stairs leading upstairs. The door didn't actually lead out at all, it lead into an old storage room that we barely used.

  6. Post #246
    Dennab
    December 2011
    5,623 Posts
    Well
    I've been studying the paranormal for a while.
    It's pretty hard to find empirical evidence for something that isn't physical.
    How exactly does one study bullshit?

    It's up to you what you study, but surely there's better shit you could be studying.

  7. Post #247
    Gold Member
    Boba_Fett's Avatar
    August 2007
    9,093 Posts
    I personally believe in ghosts because of a strange incident when I was younger.

    Independently, my brother, my sister and I described a woman in our house whom we believed was real. We collectively said that she had blonde curly hair and a green dress.

    Almost two years later, when I started attending pre-school, my mother met the previous owner of the house whom she hadn't seen since the late 1980s. Turns out we had described his deceased mother-in-law who had died in the house a few years before he sold the house. She had been buried in her wedding dress, which was green.

  8. Post #248
    Gold Member
    Jookia's Avatar
    July 2007
    6,768 Posts
    It's pretty hard to find empirical evidence for something that isn't physical.
    Math isn't physical.

  9. Post #249
    Dennab
    May 2010
    1,020 Posts
    Well I don't care if you're going to ignore logic and ask for proof of a negative. If you can only come up with a single piece of evidence based on eyewitness accounts, that does not mean you should accept it as true. What it means is that the concept is probably false since you can't find any real evidence. It isn't proof of ghosts existing.
    How are eyewitness accounts not evidence? I'm pretty sure all of you are just disregarding them because you want to be right, and quite frankly, can't handle a form of evidence that isn't an online article. I'm not saying eyewitnesses are the best type of evidence - I'm just saying they are a form of evidence whether you want to believe it or not.

    Edited:

    DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW EVIDENCE WORKS?
    Good question.

    DO YOU?

  10. Post #250
    gay mexican
    Lankist's Avatar
    July 2006
    14,576 Posts
    How are eyewitness accounts not evidence? I'm pretty sure all of you are just disregarding them because you want to be right, and quite frankly, can't handle a form of evidence that isn't an online article. I'm not saying eyewitnesses are the best type of evidence - I'm just saying they are a form of evidence whether you want to believe it or not.
    No they aren't. No scientific or rational organization accepts eyewitness testimony as a reliable form of evidence.

  11. Post #251
    President of the Westboro Baptist Church Fan Club
    Dennab
    February 2012
    2,084 Posts
    How are eyewitness accounts not evidence? I'm pretty sure all of you are just disregarding them because you want to be right, and quite frankly, can't handle a form of evidence that isn't an online article. I'm not saying eyewitnesses are the best type of evidence - I'm just saying they are a form of evidence whether you want to believe it or not.
    Millions of people have seen witches and dragons in the past. This is evidence of their existence.

  12. Post #252
    Proudly supporting the JIDF
    Dennab
    July 2010
    22,111 Posts
    Millions of people have seen witches and dragons in the past. This is evidence of their existence.
    I want to believe.

  13. Post #253
    Lilyo's Avatar
    October 2011
    2,295 Posts
    Evidence is not evidence unless it can be presented as such to an outside party. Eyewitness accounts cannot be presented as real evidence as they are just personal testimonies and can't be provided as evidence to someone who hasn't also experienced the event. They do not directly add proof to the existence of ghost, they simply demonstrate a unifying feature in human psychology. Just because a large number of people believe something doesn't make that thing true or add any truth to the matter.

    'No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavours to establish.' -David Hume

  14. Post #254
    President of the Westboro Baptist Church Fan Club
    Dennab
    February 2012
    2,084 Posts
    'No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavours to establish.' -David Hume
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

  15. Post #255
    Dennab
    May 2010
    1,020 Posts
    No they aren't. No scientific or rational organization accepts eyewitness testimony as a reliable form of evidence.
    And I'm assuming the only rational organizations are ones of science, in your mind.

    Yes, eyewitnesses are evidence. You're just not accepting it as such because it's not solid evidence. I never said it was. Evidence is used to support a claim, and as far as any smart person is concerned, eyewitnesses support claims regardless of if eyewitnesses are the most reliable type of evidence or not.

  16. Post #256
    gay mexican
    Lankist's Avatar
    July 2006
    14,576 Posts
    And I'm assuming the only rational organizations are ones of science, in your mind.
    Can you name any others?

  17. Post #257
    President of the Westboro Baptist Church Fan Club
    Dennab
    February 2012
    2,084 Posts
    And I'm assuming the only rational organizations are ones of science, in your mind.

    Yes, eyewitnesses are evidence. You're just not accepting it as such because it's not solid evidence. I never said it was. Evidence is used to support a claim, and as far as any smart person is concerned, eyewitnesses support claims regardless of if eyewitnesses are the most reliable type of evidence or not.
    Even if you are correct, why are you wasting your time arguing for evidence that even you admit is not solid?

  18. Post #258
    Gold Member
    danharibo's Avatar
    July 2006
    4,433 Posts
    How are eyewitness accounts not evidence? I'm pretty sure all of you are just disregarding them because you want to be right, and quite frankly, can't handle a form of evidence that isn't an online article. I'm not saying eyewitnesses are the best type of evidence - I'm just saying they are a form of evidence whether you want to believe it or not.

    Edited:

    Good question.

    DO YOU?
    If science cannot detect the presence of Ghosts, Spirits or Souls then they cannot have an observable effect on the physical world, including your brain.

    Point me to one scientific paper showing a means of detecting and interacting with any of those and successfully determining that they exist, then I'll gladly accept that ghosts or what not exist.

    Until then, they are just another folk tale.

  19. Post #259
    Dennab
    May 2010
    1,020 Posts
    Even if you are correct, why are you wasting your time arguing for evidence that even you admit is not solid?
    Because it's still evidence regardless of it being solid or not.

    Edited:

    If science cannot detect the presence of Ghosts, Spirits or Souls then they cannot have an observable effect on the physical world, including your brain.

    Point me to one scientific paper showing a means of detecting and interacting with any of those and successfully determining that they exist, then I'll gladly accept that ghosts or what not exist.

    Until then, they are just another folk tale.
    Which leads me to my previous statement that science doesn't always make something true or false.

  20. Post #260
    MEGA SENPAI KAWAII UGUU~~ =^_^=
    Megafan's Avatar
    September 2008
    14,605 Posts
    And I'm assuming the only rational organizations are ones of science, in your mind.

    Yes, eyewitnesses are evidence. You're just not accepting it as such because it's not solid evidence. I never said it was. Evidence is used to support a claim, and as far as any smart person is concerned, eyewitnesses support claims regardless of if eyewitnesses are the most reliable type of evidence or not.
    I'll say this right now, that eyewitnesses are not considered evidence. It's not up for debate.

  21. Post #261
    President of the Westboro Baptist Church Fan Club
    Dennab
    February 2012
    2,084 Posts
    Which leads me to my previous statement that science doesn't always make something true or false.
    What the hell? Please explain this.

  22. Post #262
    quality poster
    Dennab
    August 2009
    12,242 Posts
    And I'm assuming the only rational organizations are ones of science, in your mind.

    Yes, eyewitnesses are evidence. You're just not accepting it as such because it's not solid evidence. I never said it was. Evidence is used to support a claim, and as far as any smart person is concerned, eyewitnesses support claims regardless of if eyewitnesses are the most reliable type of evidence or not.
    "even if the evidence is total bullshit its still evidence and therefore my argument has value!!"

  23. Post #263
    Gold Member
    danharibo's Avatar
    July 2006
    4,433 Posts
    Which leads me to my previous statement that science doesn't always make something true or false.
    What are you even talking about.

  24. Post #264
    Dennab
    December 2011
    5,623 Posts
    How are eyewitness accounts not evidence? I'm pretty sure all of you are just disregarding them because you want to be right, and quite frankly, can't handle a form of evidence that isn't an online article. I'm not saying eyewitnesses are the best type of evidence - I'm just saying they are a form of evidence whether you want to believe it or not.

    Edited:



    Good question.

    DO YOU?
    Yes, and my two years of forensic sciences studies ensured that, we are told to take eye witness accounts with a pinch of salt for the simple reason that the human mind is absolutely shit at working out what happened if it even slightly out of the ordinary, without tools.

    Going into a court room and saying you believe the defendant is innocent doesn't mean a fucking thing unless you are an expert in the relevant field.

    For example, if you found some blood at a crime scene and didn't test it and said "this proves the defendant was at the crime scene" it would mean absolutely fuck all, where as a lab tech who actually tested the blood could say with absolute certainty that it was indeed the victims blood, that person would be believed cause he actually knows his shit.

    Dude seriously, leave this debate you clearly have no idea what the criteria for evidence is.

    Fuck if I convinced 100 people that I was Jesus, would that mean I'm Jesus?

  25. Post #265
    gay mexican
    Lankist's Avatar
    July 2006
    14,576 Posts
    What are you even talking about.
    metaphysical bullshit.

  26. Post #266
    Dennab
    December 2011
    5,623 Posts
    And I'm assuming the only rational organizations are ones of science, in your mind.

    Yes, eyewitnesses are evidence. You're just not accepting it as such because it's not solid evidence. I never said it was. Evidence is used to support a claim, and as far as any smart person is concerned, eyewitnesses support claims regardless of if eyewitnesses are the most reliable type of evidence or not.
    You're embarassing yourself dude, eye witness statements are not taken as evidence unless they can be corroborated.

  27. Post #267
    gay mexican
    Lankist's Avatar
    July 2006
    14,576 Posts
    You're embarassing yourself dude, eye witness statements are not taken as evidence unless they can be corroborated.
    Not even then, dude.

    Eye-witness testimony is completely irrelevant. If there is no real evidence, then they're useless. If there is, then you don't need them.

  28. Post #268
    Dennab
    December 2011
    5,623 Posts
    Yeah that's what I'm saying, the eye witness testimony gives you avenues of investigation but the evidence itself takes precedence.

  29. Post #269
    There is a distinction between rational evidence and legal evidence. Eyewitness evidence is still rational evidence, it's just extremely weak.

  30. Post #270
    Dennab
    December 2011
    5,623 Posts
    It shouldn't be used as evidence scientifically because the brain can have multiple interpretations of many situations, it doesn't deal with data empirically when it is involved in the situation.

    Besides eye witness statements are almost always wrong, there have been a fair few studies that have shown just how flimsy human memory is and how easily they can be altered.

    Several studies have been conducted on human memory and on subjects’ propensity to remember erroneously events and details that did not occur. Elizabeth Loftus performed experiments in the mid-seventies demonstrating the effect of a third party’s introducing false facts into memory.4 Subjects were shown a slide of a car at an intersection with either a yield sign or a stop sign. Experimenters asked participants questions, falsely introducing the term "stop sign" into the question instead of referring to the yield sign participants had actually seen. Similarly, experimenters falsely substituted the term "yield sign" in questions directed to participants who had actually seen the stop sign slide. The results indicated that subjects remembered seeing the false image. In the initial part of the experiment, subjects also viewed a slide showing a car accident. Some subjects were later asked how fast the cars were traveling when they "hit" each other, others were asked how fast the cars were traveling when they "smashed" into each other. Those subjects questioned using the word "smashed" were more likely to report having seen broken glass in the original slide. The introduction of false cues altered participants’ memories.
    http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue...er&tversky.htm

    If eye witness testimony is allowed then I worry about the credibility of the data used in such studies.

  31. Post #271
    gay mexican
    Lankist's Avatar
    July 2006
    14,576 Posts
    There is a distinction between rational evidence and legal evidence. Eyewitness evidence is still rational evidence, it's just extremely weak.
    No it seriously isn't. Not even weak. Inadmissible.

  32. Post #272
    No it seriously isn't. Not even weak. Inadmissible.
    i'm not talking about courts

    if there was zero correspondence between that which is spoken and that which is real, the complex evolutionary adaption known as "speech" would never have developed.

  33. Post #273
    Dennab
    May 2010
    1,020 Posts
    I'll say this right now, that eyewitnesses are not considered evidence. It's not up for debate.
    I guess that I can say online articles are just as unreliable. After all, it's just a bunch of people saying things!

    Edited:

    There is a distinction between rational evidence and legal evidence. Eyewitness evidence is still rational evidence, it's just extremely weak.
    This. Yes, eyewitnesses aren't exactly the most reliable, but they're still evidence nonetheless.

  34. Post #274
    This. Yes, eyewitnesses aren't exactly the most reliable, but they're still evidence nonetheless.
    Though as Lankist correctly notes, not in courts of law.

  35. Post #275
    Dennab
    May 2010
    1,020 Posts
    Dude seriously, leave this debate you clearly have no idea what the criteria for evidence is.
    I won't leave this debate until I am provided with better evidence than the eyewitnesses, which you should have since clearly ghosts aren't real.

  36. Post #276
    Wet Birds
    Levithan's Avatar
    September 2005
    7,969 Posts
    I won't leave this debate until I am provided with better evidence than the eyewitnesses, which you should have since clearly ghosts aren't real.
    It's up to YOU to provide evidence for magical flying shades that are immortal and that exist in every living being ever.

  37. Post #277
    Gold Member
    Chrille's Avatar
    August 2005
    5,408 Posts
    You can't disprove them anyway, if they are supernatural. Supernatural beings are infallible, which are in turn unfalsifiable. If something is unfalsifiable it's bullshit.

  38. Post #278
    President of the Westboro Baptist Church Fan Club
    Dennab
    February 2012
    2,084 Posts
    I won't leave this debate until I am provided with better evidence than the eyewitnesses, which you should have since clearly ghosts aren't real.
    I saw a ghost once but it wasn't a ghost it was a warlock. My testimony is evidence of warlocks.

  39. Post #279
    gay mexican
    Lankist's Avatar
    July 2006
    14,576 Posts
    i'm not talking about courts

    if there was zero correspondence between that which is spoken and that which is real, the complex evolutionary adaption known as "speech" would never have developed.
    Yeah, I know.

    Eye-witness testimony is completely inadmissible in SCIENCE.

    Edited:

    Find ONE reputable scientific theory which is supported by eye-witness testimony.

    Edited:

    Hell, not even GRAVITY, as a theory, recognizes eye-witness testimony. It is supported by objective, reproducible, EMPIRICAL evidence. The mathematical proofs which explained previously unobserved phenomenon (black holes) were later observed out here in reality. Not once did any scientist say "I saw X happen so it's true." (And before you say it, Netwon's Apple is about as true as Franklin's kite or Washington's cherry tree.)

    Edited:

    I won't leave this debate until I am provided with better evidence than the eyewitnesses, which you should have since clearly ghosts aren't real.
    I won't leave this discussion until I am provided better evidence for the nonexistence of Russel's Teapot.

  40. Post #280
    Dennab
    December 2011
    5,623 Posts
    I won't leave this debate until I am provided with better evidence than the eyewitnesses, which you should have since clearly ghosts aren't real.
    Here's the kicker, you made the positive comment that ghosts exist first, the burden of proof lies with you since you are trying to prove the existence.