1. Post #281
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    What crime has the woman committed?
    I didn't say the woman committed a crime. What does that have to do with what I said? I was questioning why what Sanius said shouldn't apply both ways.
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  2. Post #282
    Dennab
    September 2008
    5,613 Posts
    So if i have sex with a minor in a place where it is legal at 16 but then I have sex with the same person in a place where the legal age is 18, am I raping her in one place but not another?
    Yes, why is that difficult to understand?

    Edited:

    rape.



    She had sex with a man who was drunk and thus he was unable to give consent apparently, completely ignore the fact that she was drunk as well.
    Did your eyes glaze over when you read my spiel about initiation and responsibility? You know that is wrong, why continue

    edit: Hobo your ninja edit makes me angry
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  3. Post #283
    Gold Member
    cornndog's Avatar
    February 2007
    1,502 Posts
    Yes, why is that difficult to understand?
    Because how is she consenting in one place but then not consenting in another.

    She isn't changing so why does her ability to make decisions.
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  4. Post #284
    Gold Member
    Sector 7's Avatar
    May 2005
    3,152 Posts
    YOU TOO, ANTONIO

    Hobo: if both people are drunk off of their minds, it's an accident.
    If both people are just buzzed, it's fine.
    If both people are sober, it's fine.
    If one is just buzzed and the other is sober, it's fine.
    If one person is very drunk and the other is sober or slightly drunk (still in control of themselves enough to know what's going on), then it might be rape, depending on if the very drunk person would agree to the sex while sober. If they regret it, not like "uh i've had better sex" but "oh god where am I what the hell happened" or "why the fuck did I do that what was I thinking that wasn't like me at all", as in 'they wouldn't do it sober', it's rape.
    Again, if both are like that, it's an accident.
    Except that's not anywhere close to a legal definition of anything.

    To send someone to jail for rape, you have to determine beyond any reasonable doubt that:

    Either
    1. The victim did not give consent
    or
    1. The victim would not consent to sex in similar circumstances, but sober
    2. The victim was unknowingly drugged, or coerced to drink more than they wanted to

    If you get wasted and decide to hook up with someone, it doesn't matter how weird you feel about it the next morning. It's your fault.

    If someone intimidates or pressures you into getting more drunk than you would normally, then you've got wiggle room.
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  5. Post #285
    Hobo4President's Avatar
    January 2009
    1,249 Posts
    Yes, why is that difficult to understand?

    Edited:



    Did your eyes glaze over when you read my spiel about initiation and responsibility? You know that is wrong, why continue
    Why does it have anything to do with who initiated? Rape is about consent and whether it was there. In this case it was, so no rape occured.
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  6. Post #286
    Ms. Andry
    Dori's Avatar
    August 2005
    10,038 Posts
    If someone intimidates or pressures you into getting more drunk than you would normally, then you've got wiggle room.
    wow this sure means a lot coming from a straight male
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  7. Post #287
    Dennab
    September 2008
    5,613 Posts
    Because how is she consenting in one place but then not consenting in another.

    She isn't changing so why does her ability to make decisions.
    Sadly my one-world order utopia hasn't been realised so the world doesn't have the same set of laws yet
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  8. Post #288
    Gold Member
    Sector 7's Avatar
    May 2005
    3,152 Posts
    wow this sure means a lot coming from a straight male
    you've just invalidated everything you've said in the entire thread
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  9. Post #289
    Gold Member
    cornndog's Avatar
    February 2007
    1,502 Posts
    wow this sure means a lot coming from a straight male
    What does him being a man have to do with it.

    If you try and get a girl drunk then you are trying to have sex with her because she normally wouldn't.
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  10. Post #290
    Dennab
    September 2008
    5,613 Posts
    Why does it have anything to do with who initiated? Rape is about consent and whether it was there. In this case it was, so no rape occured.
    Holy shit you are obtuse, the responsibility to determine if consent is there falls on the person who initiates the contact, in this case the footballer didn't factor in the fact she was black-out drunk and the inability to give consent due to said fact in his thought process

    Edited:

    wow this sure means a lot coming from a straight male
    stop sabotaging yourself
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  11. Post #291
    Gold Member
    cornndog's Avatar
    February 2007
    1,502 Posts
    Holy shit you are obtuse, the responsibility to determine if consent is there falls on the person who initiates the contact, in this case the footballer didn't factor in the fact she was black-out drunk and the inability to give consent due to said fact in his thought process
    It is still too much of a grey area to say who really initiated the sex.

    For one person someone winking might mean they want to have sex.
    For another the other person has to get naked and grabbing all over you.
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  12. Post #292
    Gold Member
    Sector 7's Avatar
    May 2005
    3,152 Posts
    Holy shit you are obtuse, the responsibility to determine if consent is there falls on the person who initiates the contact, in this case the footballer didn't factor in the fact she was black-out drunk and the inability to give consent due to said fact in his thought process
    The act of initiating sex isn't a spontaneous decision. It's an emotional state that couples often arrive at simultaneously.

  13. Post #293
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    Holy shit you are obtuse, the responsibility to determine if consent is there falls on the person who initiates the contact, in this case the footballer didn't factor in the fact she was black-out drunk and the inability to give consent due to said fact in his thought process
    What are you defining as "initiating the contact" and is there evidence that man "initiated contact"?
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  14. Post #294
    Hobo4President's Avatar
    January 2009
    1,249 Posts
    Holy shit you are obtuse, the responsibility to determine if consent is there falls on the person who initiates the contact, in this case the footballer didn't factor in the fact she was black-out drunk and the inability to give consent due to said fact in his thought process
    Following the logic that when drunk you cannot give consent, the guy who was also drunk was unable to give consent. It doesn't matter if he initiated or not, he still would be unable to give consent.
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  15. Post #295
    Last or First's Avatar
    December 2009
    4,294 Posts
    To send someone to jail for rape, you have to determine beyond any reasonable doubt that:
    ...
    1. The victim would not consent to sex in similar circumstances, but sober
    ...
    If you get wasted and decide to hook up with someone, it doesn't matter how weird you feel about it the next morning. It's your fault.
    Are you not seeing the contradiction here

    If someone intimidates or pressures you into getting more drunk than you would normally, then you've got wiggle room.
    If someone intimidates or pressures you
    Wiggle room
    If someone intimidates or pressures
    Wiggle room
    intimidates or pressures
    Wiggle room
    Get out.
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  16. Post #296
    Gold Member
    Sector 7's Avatar
    May 2005
    3,152 Posts
    Are you not seeing the contradiction here
    Get out.
    Uh... no thanks, I think I'll stay. This is my forum too, you know.

    And no, I am literally not seeing the contradiction. "wiggle room" refers to the fact that you have a case against someone who pressures you to get drunk. It's not a perfect system by any means, but it's a lot more technical than "I really regret it and maybe they spiked my drink."

    Maybe you're just talking about the semantics of what I said. You should probably try to use arguments and discourse when debating, rather than slinging insults like a child.
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  17. Post #297
    Gold Member
    Lazor's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,254 Posts
    so without reading the thread i can already safely assume there's a bunch of rape culture up in here, right?
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  18. Post #298
    Gold Member
    cornndog's Avatar
    February 2007
    1,502 Posts
    so without reading the thread i can already safely assume there's a bunch of rape culture up in here, right?
    No you cannot.
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  19. Post #299
    Gold Member
    Carne's Avatar
    December 2007
    8,294 Posts
    wow this sure means a lot coming from a straight male
    What's this supposed to mean?
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  20. Post #300
    Gold Member
    Lazor's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,254 Posts
    haha yes i can i've been on the internet and this forum and in society at large to know what happens
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  21. Post #301
    Gold Member
    Sector 7's Avatar
    May 2005
    3,152 Posts
    haha yes i can i've been on the internet and this forum and in society at large to know what happens
    cool, more generalizations

    we were just running out
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  22. Post #302
    Gold Member
    cornndog's Avatar
    February 2007
    1,502 Posts
    haha yes i can i've been on the internet and this forum and in society at large to know what happens
    I know a lot of girls and i know what drunk people look like so i can safely assume that this girl is giving me consent to have sex with her without actually seeing how much she has drunk.

  23. Post #303
    Dennab
    September 2008
    5,613 Posts
    Following the logic that when drunk you cannot give consent, the guy who was also drunk was unable to give consent. It doesn't matter if he initiated or not, he still would be unable to give consent.
    Unless you can come up with a new point I will assume you are just going to re-frame the same argument over and over. If both people were black-out drunk I'll concede that if a case was brought to court it'd go no-where. In this case I think you'd find the footballer wasn't black-out drunk and therefore sexually assaulted her.

    Edited:

    What are you defining as "initiating the contact" and is there evidence that man "initiated contact"?
    That falls on the prosecutor to determine and then the judge to judge
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  24. Post #304
    Hobo4President's Avatar
    January 2009
    1,249 Posts
    Unless you can come up with a new point I will assume you are just going to re-frame the same argument over and over. If both people were black-out drunk I'll concede that if a case was brought to court it'd go no-where. In this case I think you'd find the footballer wasn't black-out drunk and therefore sexually assaulted her.
    Again, how do you know he wasn't black-out drunk? Forgetting the night before does not definitely mean that your judgement was more impaired than someone who didn't forget the night before.

  25. Post #305
    Gold Member
    cornndog's Avatar
    February 2007
    1,502 Posts
    Unless you can come up with a new point I will assume you are just going to re-frame the same argument over and over. If both people were black-out drunk I'll concede that if a case was brought to court it'd go no-where. In this case I think you'd find the footballer wasn't black-out drunk and therefore sexually assaulted her.

    Edited:



    That falls on the prosecutor to determine and then the judge to judge
    But we don't know for sure how drunk either of them really were or who was initiating sex between them so we shouldn't go around all willy nilly assuming things.
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  26. Post #306
    Gold Member
    Sector 7's Avatar
    May 2005
    3,152 Posts
    Unless you can come up with a new point I will assume you are just going to re-frame the same argument over and over. If both people were black-out drunk I'll concede that if a case was brought to court it'd go no-where. In this case I think you'd find the footballer wasn't black-out drunk and therefore sexually assaulted her.
    But then you've got to work out the technical details of where exactly the line of responsibility is when you determine someone's drunkenness - and that's only assuming you know the perp's (and the victim's) BAC at the time he (allegedly) committed the crime. Everyone's body processes alcohol differently and trying to bring that into a highly technical court case dissolves the system into deciding who seems guilty.

    It's a much more reliable system to have everyone assume responsibility for decisions they make while drunk.

  27. Post #307
    Dennab
    September 2008
    5,613 Posts
    so without reading the thread i can already safely assume there's a bunch of rape culture up in here, right?
    Seeing as the glorious Fempire of Diecisscum hasn't taken over yet you are probably correct
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  28. Post #308
    Last or First's Avatar
    December 2009
    4,294 Posts
    Uh... no thanks, I think I'll stay. This is my forum too, you know.

    And no, I am literally not seeing the contradiction. "wiggle room" refers to the fact that you have a case against someone who pressures you to get drunk. It's not a perfect system by any means, but it's a lot more technical than "I really regret it and maybe they spiked my drink."

    Maybe you're just talking about the semantics of what I said. You should probably try to use arguments and discourse when debating, rather than slinging insults like a child.
    The "are you seeing a contradiction" was to the above part, not the below.
    As in, "it's rape if you wouldn't do the same thing sober
    if you regret doing it once you're sober and are sure you wouldn't do it normally, it doesn't matter, it's not rape"
    Do you seriously not see the contradiction?

    And if someone intimidates or pressures you into doing something, you don't have "wiggle room", you have enough room to put on a fucking play. As in, someone forced / pressured you into doing something you didn't want, case fucking closed. Not "well maaaaaaaybe it's rape now, we're still not too sure".
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  29. Post #309
    Gold Member
    Lazor's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,254 Posts
    people are really upset that i'm calling out the rape culture that permeates these discussions throughout society so i'm guessing that my assumption was correct

    If someone intimidates or pressures you into getting more drunk than you would normally, then you've got wiggle room.
    yeah, rape culture.

    Edited:

    Seeing as the glorious Fempire of Diecisscum hasn't taken over yet you are probably correct
    ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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  30. Post #310
    Last or First's Avatar
    December 2009
    4,294 Posts
    I know a lot of girls and i know what drunk people look like so i can safely assume that this girl is giving me consent to have sex with her without actually seeing how much she has drunk.
    Did you seriously just compare someone jokingly judging you on the internet to rape?
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  31. Post #311
    Gold Member
    Lazor's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,254 Posts
    Did you seriously just compare someone jokingly judging you on the internet to rape?
    i think my comment may have rustled his jimmies a bit
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  32. Post #312
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    And if someone intimidates or pressures you into doing something, you don't have "wiggle room", you have enough room to put on a fucking play. As in, someone forced / pressured you into doing something you didn't want, case fucking closed. Not "well maaaaaaaybe it's rape now, we're still not too sure".
    If someone pressures me to get in a car and drive when I'm drunk and I crash, killing 3 people, I don't think that logic will help me in court.

  33. Post #313
    Gold Member
    Sector 7's Avatar
    May 2005
    3,152 Posts
    The "are you seeing a contradiction" was to the above part, not the below.
    As in, "it's rape if you wouldn't do the same thing sober
    if you regret doing it once you're sober and are sure you wouldn't do it normally, it doesn't matter, it's not rape"
    Do you seriously not see the contradiction?
    It was a condition of the second circumstance. If you would've consented sober, that leaves room for doubt over whether or not intoxication played a part.

    I do see what you're getting at, but it's an important part of strengthening a case.

    And if someone intimidates or pressures you into doing something, you don't have "wiggle room", you have enough room to put on a fucking play. As in, someone forced / pressured you into doing something you didn't want, case fucking closed. Not "well maaaaaaaybe it's rape now, we're still not too sure".
    Semantics - my word choice wasn't perfect. I'm not writing my thesis here. Cool your jets.

    i think my comment may have rustled his jimmies a bit
    I think people are annoyed because you're clearly not here to add anything intellectual to the discussion.
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  34. Post #314
    SaltyWaters's Avatar
    November 2011
    327 Posts
    wow this sure means a lot coming from a straight male
    Ah, that explains why you were shit posting in my thread in general discussion.

    /offtopic

    Legally, both of those men should have gone to jail. LEGALLY, if that woman was drunk, she was unable to give consent.

    I understand why those laws are in-place. I agree with the reasoning behind them.

    I do not agree with how they are enforced. If somebody is going to have their life utterly destroyed, then there had better be some real fucking evidence besides testimony from the accuser.

    There is alot more information on this topic in the link below.

    http://www.singularity2050.com/2010/...ry-bubble.html
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  35. Post #315
    Dennab
    September 2008
    5,613 Posts
    Again, how do you know he wasn't black-out drunk? Forgetting the night before does not definitely mean that your judgement was more impaired than someone who didn't forget the night before.
    But we don't know for sure how drunk either of them really were or who was initiating sex between them so we shouldn't go around all willy nilly assuming things.
    But then you've got to work out the technical details of where exactly the line of responsibility is when you determine someone's drunkenness - and that's only assuming you know the perp's (and the victim's) BAC at the time he (allegedly) committed the crime. Everyone's body processes alcohol differently and trying to bring that into a highly technical court case dissolves the system into deciding who seems guilty.

    It's a much more reliable system to have everyone assume responsibility for decisions they make while drunk.
    Somehow I feel during the trial these things would have been worked out, the only information we have is from an article written by the BBC, the judge felt the evidence warranted a 5 year sentence and I believe if we had the court transcripts it would be obvious why.

  36. Post #316
    Hobo4President's Avatar
    January 2009
    1,249 Posts
    Somehow I feel during the trial these things would have been worked out, the only information we have is from an article written by the BBC, the judge felt the evidence warranted a 5 year sentence and I believe if we had the court transcripts it would be obvious why.
    It's possible, but the law isn't perfect and neither are judges. We're just going with what was in the article.

  37. Post #317
    Gold Member
    Lazor's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,254 Posts
    Ah, that explains why you were shit posting in my thread in general discussion.

    /offtopic

    Legally, both of those men should have gone to jail. LEGALLY, if that woman was drunk, she was unable to give consent.

    I understand why those laws are in-place. I agree with the reasoning behind them.

    I do not agree with how they are enforced. If somebody is going to have their life utterly destroyed, then there had better be some real fucking evidence besides testimony from the accuser.

    There is alot more information on this topic in the link below.

    http://www.singularity2050.com/2010/...ry-bubble.html
    so basically you're going into this discussion with zero knowledge of how rape accusations typically turn out(hint: it usually does not end up in a conviction)

    lmao at this article, i was already wary because of the title but i just gave up at

    "The Myth of Female Oppression"

    fucking MRAs

    Edited:

    Ah, that explains why you were shit posting in my thread in general discussion.

    /offtopic

    Legally, both of those men should have gone to jail. LEGALLY, if that woman was drunk, she was unable to give consent.

    I understand why those laws are in-place. I agree with the reasoning behind them.

    I do not agree with how they are enforced. If somebody is going to have their life utterly destroyed, then there had better be some real fucking evidence besides testimony from the accuser.

    There is alot more information on this topic in the link below.

    http://www.singularity2050.com/2010/...ry-bubble.html
    so basically you're going into this discussion with zero knowledge of how rape accusations typically turn out(hint: it usually does not end up in a conviction)

    lmao at this article, i was already wary because of the title but i just gave up at

    "The Myth of Female Oppression"

    fucking MRAs
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  38. Post #318
    Gold Member
    Sector 7's Avatar
    May 2005
    3,152 Posts
    Somehow I feel during the trial these things would have been worked out, the only information we have is from an article written by the BBC, the judge felt the evidence warranted a 5 year sentence and I believe if we had the court transcripts it would be obvious why.
    Oh, definitely.

    I'm not even remotely passing judgement on anyone in the OP - the jury knows the case far better than I do.

    My posts in this thread are basically entirely a response to the people who've vilified the perp without also having the benefit of that knowledge. There are a lot of problems with the way the legal system deals with rape, (and a lot of other crimes, in fact) and reasonable discourse on the topic is healthy, and occasionally enlightening.

  39. Post #319
    Cake like Lady Gaga
    Shadaez's Avatar
    December 2005
    15,974 Posts
    No you cannot.
    well, absolute any thread having to do with rape is going to turn into misinformed people defending rape and victim blaming, plus he was 100% correct, soo
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  40. Post #320
    Gold Member
    Eluveitie's Avatar
    November 2009
    14,450 Posts
    Rape case threads are also interesting to read because of the initial support of the guilty guy being put behind bars, then the cynical people wondering whether making a stupid mistake while under the influence should really end up with people going to jail.