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Post #161
I think it's very wrong, considering I feel it as a way to let out your anger on a smaller being.
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I was spanked and I don't have severe emotional and psychological trauma but when I think back to it, there were much better alternatives. When I misbehaved (and I did it a lot), I would get my ear pulled. That was horribly painful and it felt like my ears were going to be ripped out but I got my ears pulled multiple times as a child, meaning I didn't learn a damn thing.
In my case, corporal punishment shouldn't be done because it's ineffective. Taking away my playstation on the other hand, that was very effective
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The 2.8 lower IQ quoted in that article for the "older kids" is lower than the margin of error on a standard IQ test... and the 5 point difference is very close. Certain IQ test have a margin of error even higher than 5.
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I only remember being spanked maybe 3 times in my life with a wooden spoon, one time I said bitch when I was 5 or 6 and maybe a few times because I would hit my sister. I am not a violent person, but like you know how kids get with siblings and they might hit them or something, but we're good now. I understood why I was being spanked, and that if I ever did something bad, or was about to, I would know what punishment I would get and it would deter me from doing anything bad.
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I was spanked as a child, but only very sparingly. It taught me to do the right thing and respect people. Spanking stopped after I was around six, and even then I have probably only been spanked around 5 times in my entire life. My parents are wonderful people and I am a successful person with a good job and good friends with amazing parents. If spanking is used as the "ultimate punishment" for something done wrong, then it is much more effective than using it a lot as children would get conditioned very easily. My parents exhausted all other options before spanking, so when I knew a spanking was coming, I knew that I messed up bad and I learned from the experience.
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I see it that if you need to beat your child to make them learn something, you're doing something wrong.
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I think spanking can be appropriate, but only in certain circumstances, and it depends on the child.
A rude unruly child might prefer a spanking over sitting in the corner. And it might promote their negative
behavior, especially if they are violent. However, spanking, can be an effective measure as I experienced
as I grew up.
I think that shows how alternative methods can be effective though.
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I believe that spanking is a viable way of punishment for your kids. Not like an abusive parent that will BEAT THE LIVING SHIT out of their kids but just like a small tap. We're animals and grounding just doesn't cut it. I mean growing up I didn't give a shit about getting grounded haha! I mean I'd still repeat the same thing even if I was grounded but when my dad or mom spanked me for it I knew never to do it again. Same thing with other animals. For example.. When kittens play and such and bite on their mom they get feed back from the mom snapping at them showing that they aren't supposed to do what ever they just did. I think it works on a lower level of mental processing.
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Well, I think verbal methods can be just as effective, not that I'm against hitting (not beating) in a fitting situation. Here's a related anecdote. My father grew up in the 50s. He told me when he messed up, if caught by his father, he would receive a lecture by a dissapointed father. If caught by his mother, he would get a smack. If I recall correctly, he dreaded the lectures more, because of the fact that he dissapointed his Dad. The smacks would be done with quick. He was more if a lecturer. However, he would my ear or sideburn, that kind of minor pain. He never beat me or really hurt me.
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but sometimes you just gotta get your point accross yeh? stop them from doing again whatever they were doing wrong?
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I said no to weiners, little boy bum bums are good. ~ScottyPedo, 2013
April 2012
3,693 Posts
I'll explain the way I was raised. My parents would always go through a few steps. The first was the hint. After that was the menacing talk, because the talking was much scarier than some psycho bitch screaming at me. Only after that came the smack and it would only be one. After that, my parents would always JUSTIFY why they did it.
No grounding or getting the shit beat out of me. Just a last resort that made me realise when I took something too far.
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I've had spankings before and I learned my lesson. My mom hated spanking me because it would hurt me and my dad would usually get angry more easily than my mom, but he usually hated doing it too. I've come to figure out that with most parents it hurts them more than it hurts you. My parents left each other and me and my sister stayed with my mom. Because of the emotional trauma the divorce had on me my mom and neither my dad when I stayed with him spanked me for a long while. They wouldn't spank me over something the first time I did it, if I did it a lot over a week, then they might have come to that decision. Because by then they have already done everything else, timeouts, groundings and the like.
I think the fact that your parents can give your school principal the right to spanking you with a paddle, is downright unacceptable.
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Spanking is a bad idea because it can breed resentment and disassociation from the child to the parents. It also induces the mindset in the adult that (whether they notice or not) that they are more likely to resort to physical violence and abuse due to the spanking lowering their natural inhibitors.
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I think at this point we've had enough people state their anecdotes of "I was spanked and I'm fine", so from now on please stop posting those. If you have some source material to back up that claim then feel free to post it and make an argument, but these anecdotes are getting us nowhere.
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"We should allow child labor overseas ...the sweatshop is what is saving the 9 year old worker"
April 2007
6,864 Posts
In which case the moral rule should be applicable to adults just as much if not more than children because adults have fully formed brains. If you make a mistake, someone ought to hit you. Tourturing prisoners is completely ethical. I mean really, if hitting a child for not grasping concepts due to their inherent undeveloped brain structure is legitimate, then clearly hitting and adult for concepts they do understand should be encouraged even more.
Edited:
Thank you for pointing this out. As I stated in another post, there is a Stockholm syndrome associated with kids that are spanked, which introduces an irrational bias. There is also a lot of cognitive dissonance going on. Children are taught the concept that someone who hurts others is bad. When the people that the child is completely dependent on hurts them, the child cannot come to the conclusion that their caregivers are bad as there are far too many negative implications for that conclusion. So they have to rationalize that spanking is good and that their caregivers are good for abusing them.
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I get that it's repetitive hearing the same thing over and over again, but you can't fairly dismiss everybody who was smacked occasionally as a kid and who considers their childhood happy as being repressed victims. My views based upon my childhood are through my own personal experiences and I am not trying to change anybody else's mind.
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This is bad logic. Anecdotal evidence is inadmissible, no matter how many people corroborate the story.
All of the actual, scientific study into the issue has come up with the exact opposite conclusions.
Millions of people can be wrong. In fact, large groups of people are wrong a lot more often than they're right.
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And that is fine. However in the context of a debate, or really any argument trying to determine whether it's objectively negative or positive, those anecdotes have no place.
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Once again, I am not claiming that smacking is overall good. I am saying that a blanket statement such as "every single child who was ever smacked is a victim of child abuse and is suffering from trauma" (I have seen this before) is ridiculous to me.
Indeed, you have a point. I guess I just don't think it can be said whether it's positive or negative as there's so many different factors alongside it and it can differ from person to person.
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I was spanked a couple times, but only when I was being a complete asshole.
Some kids just need slapped, it has been effective for thousands of years, why stop now?
(User was banned for this post ("This is not debating - read the rules sticky." - Megafan))
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I was spanked as a child, up until about 14.
All the fucking better for it.
You're talking about child abuse cases, not disciplinary action.
It taught me what I was doing was wrong and despite what these studies supposedly say, I learned what I did wrong and sure as hell didn't do it again.
(User was banned for this post ("This is not debating - warned literally on the same page not to post anecdotes." - Megafan))
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I think spankings are justified in moderation.
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"We should allow child labor overseas ...the sweatshop is what is saving the 9 year old worker"
April 2007
6,864 Posts
Would someone who supports spanking a child also support spanking the mentally ill, retarded, and the senile? Children have undeveloped brains that disallow them from being able to grasp many concepts fully formed and functioning human brains understand. Is there any real difference? Also, shouldn't this moral rule of spanking people for making mistakes be applied even more rigorously to those with cognitive competence? Like if your waiter makes a mistake you should be able to give them a warning, and if they make the mistake again you should be able to spank them.
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No, I've been spanked, and sometimes my mom would go overboard and get out a plastic flyswatter. I would end up bruised for a day. It hurt so much, and it never did anything except build up resentment towards my mom. This is usually what happens to kids who are spanked. They might become depressed, or they might actually suffer real, lasting damage, physical and mental.
(User was banned for this post ("Yet another anecdote, again this is not debating." - Megafan))
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With the recent string of anecdotes, I find it amusing that a recent study has come to light.
http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vao...mp201232a.html
Of course one study or even 10 cannot prove anything definitively, however this study certainly raises concern for how children who are exposed to violence (i.e spanking) will fare later in life.
Another interesting take on this new study
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A hit in the back of the head is okay , spanking is just too homo erotic .
(User was banned for this post ("This is not debating." - Megafan))
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If we acted up as kids we used to get a slap, it's how things were.
My mum was never harsh with it, we were little shits at time, but a slap would put us back in line. We all turned out fine as far as I can tell.
(User was banned for this post ("Anecdote - Read the rules sticky." - Megafan))
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Personally being struck several times according to how severe my misbehavior was,
I can definitely say that I do not completely see how hurting your child is supposed to "teach them" other than making them fear your disapproval and fear that stinging pain on their ass.
With that being said, I also have seen slight differences in comparison between how my friends treat their parents and how I treat my parents/adults in general.
I only have one close friend that I know who does not disrespect his parents and as far as I'm aware he was not spanked as a small child. As for everyone else I know, they treat their parents with complete and utter disrespect.
It irks me to see how my friends can tell their parents to "Fuck off." "Get out of my room." "Fuck you."..Along those lines, them having confirmed they were never spanked as a small child.
I was spanked from as far back as I can remember until I was about 5 or 6.
I have told my dad to "Fuck off" once in my life, when we were in a huge fight.
Me and my 3 siblings were all spanked and my brother has severe anger management issues, my sister has severe depression and my other sister has horrible anxiety and anger management issues..
leaving me to having severe depression (that I take medication for) and anxiety.
(User was banned for this post ("Anecdote - Read the rules sticky." - Megafan))
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I preferred spanking to hot sauce or soap in the mouth whenever I talked back or cursed.
It would have worked except I fucking love hot sauce.
(User was banned for this post ("Anecdote - read the rules sticky." - Megafan))
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I'm not sure how some still haven't gotten it, but I'll say it again: Anecdotes have no place in a debate.
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So far not a single study has been provided on either side that directly relates to spanking and other "gentle" corporal punishment methods. They either talk about "violence," like that last one posted, but doesn't specifically define what that means. Or they don't take into account the million other factors that go into the behavior of children.
Anecdotal evidence is all we have so far. So far I haven't seen a single person who was very rarely spanked think that it had a negative impact on their lives. In fact most seem to think it was either necessary, beneficial, or at a minimum equal to any other form of punishment.
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Whether either type of study is definitive or not is not the point, the point is that at least then you can claim to have some basis in analysis or science, whereas now all we've got is people throwing opinions of their own experience at each other, something about as close to biased as you can get without literally saying "I'm right because I am".
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My point being that if anecdotes are being banned than almost every post in this thread should be banned as unsupported opinions are essentially at the same level.
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I'm just saying support it with something. Even if a given study doesn't prove you're right, it provides some backing.
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"We should allow child labor overseas ...the sweatshop is what is saving the 9 year old worker"
April 2007
6,864 Posts
I'm slightly confused as you seem to believe that the effects of spanking are more important than the ethical implications. Ignoring ethical claims is like arguing about whether slavery has a net positive or a net negative affect on society, and practical issues that come with the abolition of slavery. A common argument made by pro-slavery proponents was "who will pick the cotton if there are no slaves to work the fields?". This is akin to asking "how will children be disciplined without spanking?".
Could you please make the ethical case for spanking? No arguments from effect please, as ethical claims aren't based on effects.
The principal here is "if someone thinks something is beneficial, it is". There are obvious issues with this principal, especially considering psychological effects like Stockholm syndrome. If you want me to expand upon the issues with the claim I can do so.
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First of all, who decided that the effect of an action has nothing to do with the ethics of that action? There are entire systems of ethics based on the effects of actions (e.g. Utilitarianism) So it seems your claim there is fairly arbitrary.
No, the principal here is, "If many people agree that something is beneficial under many difference circumstances and without collaborating it is more likely that that thing is beneficial." The key isn't a single anecdote, but the combined force of many anecdotes that all agree.
To assume Stockholm syndrome in dozens of people who all lived with completely different factors and in separate situations seems to me like a desire to discredit, not a legitimate concern.
Edited:
A personal experience IS support though. While it isn't at all enough to prove a point it does give a reason for a belief. There are plenty of posts that make a claim without any sort of support at all, yet for some reason that's perfectly fine. It seems more like a vendetta against anecdotes, not bad argumentation.
In the end, you're the mod and I'm not. These bans just seems a little inconsistent to me.
