[The golden]

This probably isn't really S-headlines material but I'll be damned if I could find a place to put this. It could probably go in mass-debate, games discussion, news node, and headlines all at the same time. I guess here will have to do, considering it is about the announcement of a kickstarter and a harassment case all in one.

The question of sexism in videogames really oughtn’t be a question at all. Videogames are rife with the thickest seam of sexism, and have been since the first had front covers on the cassettes. Not just in the games themselves, but in the culture surrounding it, from the prevalence – and misogynistic reaction to – ‘booth babes’, to the wretched response received in all corners of the internet when people attempt to discuss it. Pretending otherwise is pointless, and responses of being “tired” of the topic are a statement of acceptance. And there’s no clearer or more revolting evidence of this than the reaction to a Kickstarter by Feminist Frequency‘s Anita Sarkeesian, aiming to raise money to create a web series about the issue.

- - - -

It kind of terrifies me that reporting that Sarkeesian has received multiple threats of rape and death feels like it won’t make a significant impact on the reader. Perhaps that the internet’s more wretched areas are so commonly filled with such threats has normalised our reaction to reports of them. The key to snap out of this, and take it on board, is I think to not read about it as a thing that happened to someone else, but to imagine being the person on the receiving end – to imagine being an individual who is reading person after person saying they will sexually assault or murder you. That’s the beginning of the response Sarkeesian has seen over the last couple of weeks.

- - - -

On top of this, Sarkeesian reports that she’s received threatening messages on Twitter, Facebook, through Kickstarter, and on her own website. Because she wants to do some research and make some videos concerning the topic of the representation of women in games.

- - - -

I’ve no clear idea what the solutions are. Education is my instinctive reaction, and – oh – that’s what Sarkeesian is trying to create. I think a more representative portrayal of women in the medium would go a hell of a long way too, since were it the norm to see women portrayed as something other than sexual fantasies or weaklings to protect, people might not scream out that “games are mostly played by guys, and that’s what guys want,” as so many have in the reaction to this Kickstarter. Maybe if men and boys were shown that games are still just as thrilling and entertaining without resorting to such aspects, then not only would women and girls feel less alienated by the medium, but maybe people would be less inclined to defend it.

Full article: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012...-the-internet/
Kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...in-video-games

I know this is a really thorny topic, but maybe we can get some discussion going here. Please keep it civil!

[cccritical]

isn't it usually kotaku that blows things way the fuck out of proportion and tries to convert all their readerbase to white knights

[cdrw5]

Pfft shes a "feminist"
Wait 100000 dollar pledged of a 6000 dollar goal? what in the world

[Boxbot219]

I'd just like to say that the majority of these internet misogynists are cowards who would never dare to say the things they say online to a woman's face.

[JgcxCub]

I think kickstarter is the wrong idea, some guy pointed out in a video recently that we don't need a documentary to tell us what we already know.

[Ericson666]

To be fair, men get objectified a lot too. See Gears of War for example.

But I do agree, it's actually annoying as fuck to be playing a game and having fun, then seeing some fucktarded fan service that makes no sense.


Edit: Read my post a few down, didn't mean to make it seem that men get it as bad as women do, women definitely get screwed more over this.

[MaxOfS2D]

Ericson666 posted:

To be fair, men get objectified a lot too. See Gears of War for example.

men aren't treated as objects, they're treated as masculine power fantasies

[Boxbot219]

Ericson666 posted:

To be fair, men get objectified a lot too. See Gears of War for example.

But I do agree, it's actually annoying as fuck to be playing a game and having fun, then seeing some fucktarded fan service that makes no sense.

I don't really think very many men get offended by men in Gears of War being portrayed as strong and badass.

[Capitulazyguy]

Boxbot219 posted:

I'd just like to say that the majority of these internet misogynists are cowards who would never dare to say the things they say online to a woman's face.

Well, yeah. Internet tough guys.

[AceOfDivine]

Boxbot219 posted:

I don't really think very many men get offended by men in Gears of War being portrayed as strong and badass.

Women get offended for fictional women being portrayed as sexy?
No big boobs argument, Gow guys have huge muscles

[darnok]

Ericson666 posted:

To be fair, men get objectified a lot too. See Gears of War for example.

This made me laugh. In a sense it's true, though. The men in that game are all three hundred pound freight trains of muscle. I guess it's the male equivalent of having breasts that are larger than your head.

[Lankist]

ITT male privilege strikes again

Edited:

darnok posted:

This made me laugh. In a sense it's true, though. The men in that game are all three hundred pound freight trains of muscle. I guess it's the male equivalent of having breasts that are larger than your head.

Gears of War muscle-bound characters are a male power fantasy. Scantily clad disproportionate women are a male sex fantasy. Men are doing the objectification in both cases.

Unless you think the (predominately male) Epic Games designs their characters according to the female gaze (they don't,) then that's just a dumbfuck argument. Men aren't being objectified.

[Boxbot219]

AceOfDivine posted:

Women get offended for fictional women being portrayed as sexy?
No big boobs argument, Gow guys have huge muscles

That's the thing though. Most women in video games are portrayed as sexy and nothing else while men are strong and get shit done.

[Ericson666]

Lankist posted:

ITT male privilege strikes again

Edited:



Gears of War muscle-bound characters are a male power fantasy. Scantily clad disproportionate women are a male sex fantasy. Men are doing the objectification in both cases.

Unless you think the (predominately male) Epic Games designs their characters according to the female gaze (they don't,) then that's just a dumbfuck argument. Men aren't being objectified.

Well of course I'm not saying it's the same, females definitely get the short end of the stick.

[Lankist]

Boxbot219 posted:

That's the thing though. Most women in video games are portrayed as sexy and nothing else while men are strong and get shit done.

What people don't seem to fucking get is that it's not about the fact that characters are portrayed unrealistically, but more about who they're trying to appeal to. Big strong men and ditzy women are not two sides of the same coin, they are one side of the same coin: male fantasy--power and sex respectively.

Whoever thinks Gears of War is designed visually to appeal to women needs to meet a fucking woman. Big beefy GoW characters are the stereotypical ideal male within the stereotypical male ego. Ditzy, busty women are the stereotypical ideal female within the stereotypical male ego. Women don't get a fucking say in either one of those portrayals. To imply women are objectifying men because GI Joe is a thing is fucking absurd.

If the male gender as a whole wants to stop the musclebound stereotype, you need to fight that within your own fucking gender. Women don't have anything to do with that shit, and its existence certainly does not diminish existent misogyny and sexism in media.

[BloodFox1222]

Call me crazy but, Does this really matter? I'd think this money could go to something better than fixing fiction.

[AceOfDivine]

If you want to fix fiction, start writing it. More women joining game dev = more equality as then men won't be the only ones designing games.

[Marbalo]

This is the most retarded kickstarter project.

[smurfy]

I actually really enjoy it when female characters arent shit e.g. Mirror's Edge, I guess because it's something different

[Lankist]

AceOfDivine posted:

If you want to fix fiction, start writing it. More women joining game dev = more equality as then men won't be the only ones designing games.

Yes because it's not like people constantly harass female writers who join the industry out of a love of writing rather than a love of games.

[AJisAwesome15]

I did not word this post correctly, disregard

[BloodFox1222]

Boy i can't believe you just used tomb raider and bayonetta as examples of female characters who aren't just there to look appealing.

[Lankist]

AJisAwesome15 posted:

Tomb Raider? Bayonetta? Half Life (Alyx)? Portal?

There are a lot of girls in video games that do shit and aren't there to look appealing or whatever.
I mean, look at alyx and chell, they're ugly as fuck and they do stuff.
I just don't get this, really.

You pick four games and somehow half of them managed to be prime examples of sexism in the industry.

[The golden]

BloodFox1222 posted:

Call me crazy but, Does this really matter? I'd think this money could go to something better than fixing fiction.

Woefully incorrect portrayal of females isn't fiction. It's a real problem. This woman and her project focus on the video game aspect of it, which is a smart move considering games are becoming a extreme popular media medium.

Have you not heard/seen how females are portrayed in magazines and other such media? A lot of dust has been flung up over that because of the problems it is causing. Everything from young girls starving themselves to even committing suicide. It's not related to sexism such as this, but it shows how easily damage can be done.

How do you combat this? You educate people. Read: OP

[Lankist]

AJisAwesome15 posted:

I mean, look at alyx and chell, they're ugly as fuck and they do stuff.

this is the problem

Even when you're talking about how good those games are at portraying women, you still only refer to them in terms of sex appeal.

[Ericson666]

AJisAwesome15 posted:

Tomb Raider? Bayonetta? Half Life (Alyx)? Portal?

There are a lot of girls in video games that do shit and aren't there to look appealing or whatever.
I mean, look at alyx and chell, they're ugly as fuck and they do stuff.
I just don't get this, really.

I don't think that Lara Croft and Bayonetta are very good examples

[The golden]

AJisAwesome15 posted:

Tomb Raider? Bayonetta? Half Life (Alyx)? Portal?

There are a lot of girls in video games that do shit and aren't there to look appealing or whatever.
I mean, look at alyx and chell, they're ugly as fuck and they do stuff.
I just don't get this, really.

Funny how you mention Chell. Her return in Portal 2 has her top unzipped and her udders on display. Alyx isn't the worst but she isn't exactly non-sexual either. Seriously, have you looked at her recently?
Lara Croft has already been confirmed to be a sexual appeal object by the devs. It isn't a secret why she's a rake with watermelons.

and did you really just mention Bayonetta as non-sexual? Oh dear...

[AceOfDivine]

Lankist posted:

Yes because it's not like people constantly harass female writers who join the industry out of a love of writing rather than a love of games.

I am not aware of such cases except hamburger helper, which had less to do with her being a female and more with being not that good. Portal was part designed by a female who's working on her own game now.

[AJisAwesome15]

Lankist posted:

You pick four games and somehow half of them managed to be prime examples of sexism in the industry.

But they have roles?

Do I just not understand what they're mad about?

[AceOfDivine]

The golden posted:

Funny how you mention Chell. Her return in Portal 2 has her top unzipped and her udders on display. Alyx isn't the worst but she isn't exactly non-sexual either. Seriously, have you looked at her recently?
Lara Croft has already been confirmed to be a sexual appeal object by the devs. It isn't a secret why she's a rake with watermelons.

and did you really just mention Bayonetta as non-sexual? Oh dear...

Portal 2 was like that because the chick on portal team left. Alyx is as unsexualized as you can get. Real life is more sexualized than that. Hardly a fantasy.

[TheJoey]

AJisAwesome15 posted:

Tomb Raider? Bayonetta? Half Life (Alyx)? Portal?

There are a lot of girls in video games that do shit and aren't there to look appealing or whatever.
I mean, look at alyx and chell, they're ugly as fuck and they do stuff.
I just don't get this, really.

i respect your opinion but youve got shit taste in women

but i also dont get the "perfect muscle body builder space marine dude is fantasy for guys, sexy perfect beach babe girl is also fantasy for guys" argument. i know plenty of girls that are not above swooning over the muscle dude, just as guys get boners over big boobie girls.

i also dont understand why video games are the target here? did people just stop writing books and movies where females are treated as objects or dumb bimbos, or did the feminist movement give up in that department and moved on to video games?

i dunno. i don't treat women like objects, i make female characters when i can... i personally don't need to be preached this, especially when objectifying any human being goes both ways and isnt just offensive to women.

maybe there should be a movement to just write better characters.

[Boxbot219]

AJisAwesome15 posted:

But they have roles?

Do I just not understand what they're mad about?

Yes they do have roles.

One of their roles is sex appeal.

[Lankist]

AJisAwesome15 posted:

Do I just not understand what they're mad about?

bingo

Look back at your post.

When speaking on how great Alyx and Chell are as characters, you still referred to them as "ugly as fuck" first and foremost.

How do you not see a problem here?

Edited:

TheJoey posted:

but i also dont get the "perfect muscle body builder space marine dude is fantasy for guys, sexy perfect beach babe girl is also fantasy for guys" argument. i know plenty of girls that are not above swooning over the muscle dude

That doesn't change the fact that the image is derived from the male ego, and that the art direction of that fucking game was designed to appeal to men.

How many fucking women do you know that play Gears of War because Dom is so sexy it hurts?

[Ericson666]

The golden posted:

Funny how you mention Chell. Her return in Portal 2 has her top unzipped and her udders on display. Alyx isn't the worst but she isn't exactly non-sexual either. Seriously, have you looked at her recently?
Lara Croft has already been confirmed to be a sexual appeal object by the devs. It isn't a secret why she's a rake with watermelons.

and did you really just mention Bayonetta as non-sexual? Oh dear...

Chell was sexualized in Portal 2? Did I miss something?

[Dori]

Lankist posted:

bingo

Look back at your post.

When speaking on how great Alyx and Chell are as characters, you still referred to them as "ugly as fuck" first and foremost.

How do you not see a problem here?

he doesn't see the problem because he's a typical straight male

[The golden]

Ericson666 posted:

Chell was sexualized in Portal 2? Did I miss something?

Yes you did. The fact that her exposed chest is a new change over Portal 2.

[Lankist]

AceOfDivine posted:

I am not aware of such cases except hamburger helper

See, this is the fucking problem.

And for the love of fuck can people stop using "female" as a noun. You all sound autistic when you refer to women as "females." We aren't talking about a wild bonobo population, we're talking about men and women in human society. You all sound ridiculous when you talk like that.

[AJisAwesome15]

Lankist posted:

bingo

Look back at your post.

When speaking on how great Alyx and Chell are as characters, you still referred to them as "ugly as fuck" first and foremost.

How do you not see a problem here?

Well I was trying to make a point that not all women in video games are there to look attractive or be someone in distress or be a follower. Saying they were ugly as fuck was kinda far though, I admit.

[AceOfDivine]

Do feminists also complain about all the nude art paintings and sculptures? They obviously sexualize women and their bodies, use them as decorative objects and stuff.
As long as the field is dominated by men, nothing will change. Men like sexy women, not much you can do there.

[BloodFox1222]

Ericson666 posted:

Chell was sexualized in Portal 2? Did I miss something?

Feel free to judge for yourself, IMO she is but its not over the top.