1. Post #161
    Loriborn's Avatar
    October 2009
    6,245 Posts
    No you can't, and I explained why in my post. To make it simpler - murder is disturbing because of the actual effects of the murder (as is rape), but visually witnessing the act of rape itself is disturbing whether the people are real or not. Murder doesn't even have to even involve violence, it can be as simple as someone dropping dead from drinking poison. To argue that somebody ragdolling after getting a red mark on their chest is in the same category as a woman being forced down and fucked against their will is scary to say the least.
    If you're going to say it like that then rape in video games is just a character ragdolling while another ragdoll moves its pelvis in and out of the other. If you're going to argue that murder isn't disturbing just because of the "quality" then you are disturbed. I don't see how watching a man get shot in the head is any better than watching a woman get felt up.
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  2. Post #162
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    Why is that in a game, if you have rape, the player immediately thinks of the process of rape, but with murder, they don't think of the process of murder?
    because games don't always deal realistically with murder?

    Edited:

    I don't see how watching a man get shot in the head is any better than watching a woman get felt up.
    are we still talking about games?

  3. Post #163
    2014 SH Pun Award Nominee
    Awesomecaek's Avatar
    January 2009
    21,209 Posts
    Because rape is (arguably) up there in terms of being the ultimate form of physical and mental torture. It can physically and mentally destroy someone for the rest of their life.

    A person who is dead no longer feels anything. A rape victim is haunted for the rest of their life.
    What?

    I am sorry, rape IS a horrible thing and it shouldn't happen at all, but if somebody gave me a choice between getting bones broken/twisted/beat shit out of me and rape, then I would probably choose the later, and you can argue that's just me, but I think that's true for most people.

    There's rape for years in almost all kinds of art, and there is no reason why it shouldn't be in a game.

  4. Post #164
    Loriborn's Avatar
    October 2009
    6,245 Posts
    because games don't always deal realistically with murder?
    So then the solution is that if every game for the next decade involves rape as a normal gameplay element to the point that it is considered "not realistic", then it's no longer a bad thing to have in games, right? That's exactly what happened to games with killing. People like you all said the DOOM was a god awful game and that it's traumatic to have a game that involves so much death and murder. Nearly two decades later, DOOM is pretty clean by today's standards.

  5. Post #165
    Gold Member
    Fetret's Avatar
    December 2006
    1,333 Posts
    “She is literally turned into a cornered animal. It’s a huge step in her evolution: she’s forced to either fight back or die.”
    Isn't this every Tomb Raider game ever?
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  6. Post #166
    Gold Member

    March 2005
    3,028 Posts
    Guys rape in video games != murder, and using PTSD stories about people in war is not a good way to try and make that illegitimate point. Murder, especially in the sense that it's portrayed in most video games is almost comical - but rape isn't and never will be unless you're pretty sick. The trauma that results from murder is the result of having to end the life of another human being, whereas no matter how good a video game is a murder will never impact you that much because under everything you know that they're not a real person. Rape is horrifying regardless though because it's not just the knowledge of what's been done that's horrifying, but the actual process. A murder can be as simple as pulling a trigger and looking away, or punching someone hard to the neck - rape on the other hand is a deeply traumatic form of torture and there's no way you can make it a tame action. So before you try and act like murder and rape in video games are both in the same bucket because they can both cause trauma in real life, fucking think about it
    I really don't think that murder is ever as 'simple as the pull of a trigger'. Even if you get shot in the head, it's probably still not 'quick' or 'clean' by any means. It's just been sanitized because if we portrayed violence and death the way it occurs in real life, you wouldn't want to play violent video games.

    There was an Overgrowth dev video where they showed the death animation for characters. In any other game, you hit something and it ragdollizes. Occasionally with a grunt. But in the Overgrowth video, a character might start spurting blood, grab its neck and fall to the ground, then writhe around and frantically grasp for breath with every ounce of strength it had left.
    It's funny how a game about anthropomorphic rabbits can make my stomach churn with such a simple little detail.

    So violence is never pretty, death is never clean, and to ever suggest that violence of 'type X' is more/less horrifying than violence of 'type Y' is absurd.
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  7. Post #167
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    So then the solution is that if every game for the next decade involves rape as a normal gameplay element to the point that it is considered "not realistic", then it's no longer a bad thing to have in games, right?
    why do you want rape normalized in games? you're really doing my head in mate.


    That's exactly what happened to games with killing. People like you all said the DOOM was a god awful game and that it's traumatic to have a game that involves so much death and murder. Nearly two decades later, DOOM is pretty clean by today's standards.
    Doom is clean by today's standards because it's so hilariously unrealistic. you might be too young but nobody was affected by Doom even when it came out because of how unrealistic it was.

    sure it was the most graphic thing we saw at that point, but like i've laid out before how graphic something is doesn't have anything to do with how powerful murder would be emotionally. i'm affected by a murder in a book if it's presented in a realistic way.

  8. Post #168
    Loriborn's Avatar
    October 2009
    6,245 Posts
    I really don't think that murder is ever as 'simple as the pull of a trigger'. Even if you get shot in the head, it's probably still not 'quick' or 'clean' by any means. It's just been sanitized because if we portrayed violence and death the way it occurs in real life, you wouldn't want to play violent video games.

    There was an Overgrowth dev video where they showed the death animation for characters. In any other game, you hit something and it ragdollizes. Occasionally with a grunt. But in the Overgrowth video, a character might start spurting blood, grab its neck and fall to the ground, then writhe around and frantically grasp for breath with every ounce of strength it had left.
    It's funny how a game about anthropomorphic rabbits can make my stomach churn with such a simple little detail.

    So violence is never pretty, death is never clean, and to ever suggest that violence of 'type X' is more/less horrifying than violence of 'type Y' is absurd.
    It's funny, they argue that death is okay in games just because it isn't "good quality". Would you all say the same things about death that you say about rape if the death scenes in all games were like that one in Heavy Rain?

  9. Post #169
    Gold Member
    Elspin's Avatar
    December 2006
    5,367 Posts
    are we still talking about games?
    I hope so, if not this guy is freaking majorly creepy (not like I haven't seen creepier posts on FP though)

    What?

    I am sorry, rape IS a horrible thing and it shouldn't happen at all, but if somebody gave me a choice between getting bones broken/twisted/beat shit out of me and rape, then I would probably choose the later, and you can argue that's just me, but I think that's true for most people.

    There's rape for years in almost all kinds of art, and there is no reason why it shouldn't be in a game.
    You're comparing torture to rape instead of murder to rape, which is especially odd considering rape can involve all of the other things you've mentioned.
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  10. Post #170
    Loriborn's Avatar
    October 2009
    6,245 Posts
    why do you want rape normalized in games? you're really doing my head in mate.


    Doom is clean by today's standards because it's so hilariously unrealistic. you might be too young but nobody was affected by Doom even when it came out because of how unrealistic it was.

    sure it was the most graphic thing we saw at that point, but like i've laid out before how graphic something is doesn't have anything to do with how powerful murder would be emotionally. i'm affected by a murder in a book if it's presented in a realistic way.
    No one was affected by DOOM, just like no one is affected by the rape in this video or in any other media type, right? So there goes that argument. Also, while we're at it, the whole concept of "normalizing rape" was sarcasm pointed at how killing people is okay now in games because it's become normalized.

  11. Post #171
    2014 SH Pun Award Nominee
    Awesomecaek's Avatar
    January 2009
    21,209 Posts
    You're comparing torture to rape instead of murder to rape, which is especially odd considering rape can involve all of the other things you've mentioned.
    He was the one who compared torture to rape. I am sorry I don't fit in into the narrow field of discussion, but the point of a quote of reading what the person is referring to.

  12. Post #172
    I once worked at a sperm bank, the food was terrible
    The Baconator's Avatar
    April 2011
    9,172 Posts
    This is all for publicity

    There is also no rape, just the typical bad guy fondling of victims, which never actually turns into a rape

  13. Post #173
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    No one was affected by DOOM, just like no one is affected by the rape in this video or in any other media type, right? So there goes that argument.
    huh?

    Also, while we're at it, the whole concept of "normalizing rape" was sarcasm pointed at how killing people is okay now in games because it's become normalized.
    killing people in games was always okay, because it's completely unrealistic and disassociated from any emotional response.

    if you made a game that dealt with murder in a realistic way, only people with a disposition to not care about murder (mental illness involving emotions) wouldn't be emotionally affected by it.

    however with rape in a videogame while the ability for it to be graphic might not be that much, the ability for it to realistic deal with why rape is horrible is incredibly easy because it could easily portray loss of control, victimization, and intense emotional abuse within a matter of seconds. you can't do that in a videogame because the emotional response to murder isn't something done easily and quickly.

    so that's why if you portray rape in a videogame the potential for it to go absolute batshit stupid and insane is quick and therefor rape in videogames is different from murder in videogames.

    the golden wasn't even talking about this video, he was responding to your post.

  14. Post #174
    Gold Member
    Elspin's Avatar
    December 2006
    5,367 Posts
    It's funny, they argue that death is okay in games just because it isn't "good quality". Would you all say the same things about death that you say about rape if the death scenes in all games were like that one in Heavy Rain?
    This doesn't even make any sense, not only are you bringing your pretentiousness to a maximum by furthering your blatant misunderstanding of the argument, but you're incorrectly trying to apply one type of murder to EVERY kind of murder. Do you honestly think that a scene from a drama is a good way to represent every murder in a video game? Do you honestly think that a murder is disturbing because they're "good quality" (your wording not mine thanks)? Not every murder is a heart-wrenching scene from a drama or a violent bleedout with a terrified victim screaming and clutching the spewing torrent of blood.

  15. Post #175
    Bentham's Avatar
    January 2012
    1,802 Posts
    This doesn't even make any sense, not only are you bringing your pretentiousness to a maximum by furthering your blatant misunderstanding of the argument, but you're incorrectly trying to apply one type of murder to EVERY kind of murder. Do you honestly think that a scene from a drama is a good way to represent every murder in a video game? Do you honestly think that a murder is disturbing because they're "good quality" (your wording not mine thanks)? Not every murder is a heart-wrenching scene from a drama or a violent bleedout with a terrified victim screaming and clutching the spewing torrent of blood.
    I don't mean to put words in his mouth but I think he's more arguing that people don't think that a graphic and emotionally jarring murder in a video game is equally as achievable as a rape in a video game. In both situations nobody is actually physically suffering, but in either case, the situation can be made real enough to warrant a serious emotional response.
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  16. Post #176
    2014 SH Pun Award Nominee
    Awesomecaek's Avatar
    January 2009
    21,209 Posts
    This doesn't even make any sense, not only are you bringing your pretentiousness to a maximum by furthering your blatant misunderstanding of the argument, but you're incorrectly trying to apply one type of murder to EVERY kind of murder. Do you honestly think that a scene from a drama is a good way to represent every murder in a video game? Do you honestly think that a murder is disturbing because they're "good quality" (your wording not mine thanks)? Not every murder is a heart-wrenching scene from a drama or a violent bleedout with a terrified victim screaming and clutching the spewing torrent of blood.
    Meanwhile you have no idea how exactly will the rape scene in the game look in the end while you are judging it in advance. That doesn't seem exactly smooth, either.

  17. Post #177
    Loriborn's Avatar
    October 2009
    6,245 Posts
    huh?



    killing people in games was always okay, because it's completely unrealistic and disassociated from any emotional response.

    if you made a game that dealt with murder in a realistic way, only people with a disposition to not care about murder (mental illness involving emotions) wouldn't be emotionally affected by it.

    however with rape in a videogame while the ability for it to be graphic might not be that much, the ability for it to realistic deal with why rape is horrible is incredibly easy because it could easily portray loss of control, victimization, and intense emotional abuse within a matter of seconds. you can't do that in a videogame because the emotional response to murder isn't something done easily and quickly.

    so that's why if you portray rape in a videogame the potential for it to go absolute batshit stupid and insane is quick and therefor rape in videogames is different from murder in videogames.

    the golden wasn't even talking about this video, he was responding to your post.
    Have we seen any examples of rape in games done realistically in the way you describe "proper murder"? But in terms of movies, there are tons of movies that have rape, why are those okay, but it's not okay for them to be in video games?

  18. Post #178
    Mr. Scorpio's Avatar
    May 2010
    11,146 Posts
    this whole game looks like it was written and designed by Ryu-gi
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  19. Post #179
    Loriborn's Avatar
    October 2009
    6,245 Posts
    I don't mean to put words in his mouth but I think he's more arguing that people don't think that a graphic and emotionally jarring murder in a video game is equally as achievable as a rape in a video game. In both situations nobody is actually physically suffering, but in either case, the situation can be made real enough to warrant a serious emotional response.
    Pretty much this.

  20. Post #180
    Gold Member

    March 2005
    3,028 Posts
    This doesn't even make any sense, not only are you bringing your pretentiousness to a maximum by furthering your blatant misunderstanding of the argument, but you're incorrectly trying to apply one type of murder to EVERY kind of murder. Do you honestly think that a scene from a drama is a good way to represent every murder in a video game? Do you honestly think that a murder is disturbing because they're "good quality" (your wording not mine thanks)? Not every murder is a heart-wrenching scene from a drama or a violent bleedout with a terrified victim screaming and clutching the spewing torrent of blood.
    I want to know what kind of fantasy land you live in.
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  21. Post #181
    Gold Member
    Elspin's Avatar
    December 2006
    5,367 Posts
    Meanwhile you have no idea how exactly will the rape scene in the game look in the end while you are judging it in advance. That doesn't seem exactly smooth, either.
    Darrell Gallagher (Studio Head) posted:
    In this particular selection, while there is a threatening undertone in the sequence and surrounding drama, it never goes any further than the scenes that we have already shown publicly. Sexual assault of any kind is categorically not a theme that we cover in this game.

  22. Post #182
    Is it the '70s again or something?

  23. Post #183
    I once worked at a sperm bank, the food was terrible
    The Baconator's Avatar
    April 2011
    9,172 Posts
    Is it the '70s again or something?
    what makes you say that?

  24. Post #184
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    But in terms of movies, there are tons of movies that have rape, why are those okay, but it's not okay for them to be in video games?
    you know if you're gonna argue with someone, you should at least read their posts.
    specifically the one where i say i'm fine with rape in video games, as long as they are handled in a way that isn't terrible IE Custer's Revenge.

  25. Post #185
    what makes you say that?
    Because just about every movie in the '70s had rape in it.
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  26. Post #186
    Gold Member

    March 2005
    3,028 Posts
    Not every murder is a heart-wrenching scene from a drama or a violent bleedout with a terrified victim screaming and clutching the spewing torrent of blood.
    This, specifically, is what bothers me.

    You know when you watch the news and they say "a local man sustained a gun shot wound and is in critical condition"? Yeah, that person isn't dead. They're on a table in some hospital, dying, slowly. The fact is people don't just get hit with a bullet and 'shut down' right away. They spend minutes or even hours in agony before they die.

    But even if it was instant/painless, would that make it any less tragic? I don't think the loss of a life is anything to scoff at.

  27. Post #187
    Gold Member
    Lhuth's Avatar
    July 2011
    237 Posts
    I don't think that most of the uproar against this has come because of the fact that an attempted rape is included in a game. Most sensible people will realise that there are nastier or equally nasty things in games that we all play all the time.

    The uproar has come mainly from the developer comments about it saying that they're using rape as a way of developing a female character and making her appear more vulnerable. That's the bit that's not cool.
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  28. Post #188
    Gold Member
    Elspin's Avatar
    December 2006
    5,367 Posts
    I don't mean to put words in his mouth but I think he's more arguing that people don't think that a graphic and emotionally jarring murder in a video game is equally as achievable as a rape in a video game. In both situations nobody is actually physically suffering, but in either case, the situation can be made real enough to warrant a serious emotional response.
    I'm not arguing that murder CAN'T be traumatic and horrifying - just that it doesn't have to be, whereas it's hard not to make rape traumatic without making it a pile of ragdolls flapping at each other. A death doesn't have to be a dramatic scene out of heavy rain, it CAN (please note nazis, I'm well aware even a clean shot to the head doesn't ALWAYS turn out this way) be as simple as a clean shot during an action scene that kills someone immediately - and that's typically the kind of deaths that are portrayed in games. A rape can't be handled like that, the nature of the action requires it to be drawn out which in anything even vaguely realistic is going to be traumatic.

    I'd like to point out too that I'm not trying to say rape can't be in video games, just that trying to compare it to murder and saying it's the same thing because "both can be traumatic" is borderline insanity
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  29. Post #189
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    The uproar has come mainly from the developer comments about it saying that they're using rape as a way of developing a female character and making her appear more vulnerable. That's the bit that's not cool.
    i just want lara to have short shorts again

    Edited:

    But even if it was instant/painless, would that make it any less tragic? I don't think the loss of a life is anything to scoff at.
    i'm starting to sound like a broken record here: are we still talking about games?

  30. Post #190
    Governor Goblin's Avatar
    December 2011
    2,782 Posts
    I don't think thisispain knows what he's arguing.
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  31. Post #191
    Gold Member
    Mlisen14's Avatar
    September 2008
    3,899 Posts
    Rape controversy aside, it seems really weird to make Lara Croft (one of the most sexualised characters in gaming) into a victim of sexual abuse. It almost seems like a meta narrative of the developers trying to shake the whole sexist image of their games.

  32. Post #192
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    I don't think thisispain knows what he's arguing.
    thisispain knows just fine what thisispain's arguing about, if Governor Goblin is having problems understanding thisispain's arguments thisispain will be more than happy to help Governor Goblin understand.
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  33. Post #193
    Bentham's Avatar
    January 2012
    1,802 Posts
    I'm not arguing that murder CAN'T be traumatic and horrifying - just that it doesn't have to be, whereas it's hard not to make rape traumatic without making it a pile of ragdolls flapping at each other. A death doesn't have to be a dramatic scene out of heavy rain, it CAN (please note nazis, I'm well aware even a clean shot to the head doesn't ALWAYS turn out this way) be as simple as a clean shot during an action scene that kills someone immediately - and that's typically the kind of deaths that are portrayed in games. A rape can't be handled like that, the nature of the action requires it to be drawn out which in anything even vaguely realistic is going to be traumatic.

    I'd like to point out too that I'm not trying to say rape can't be in video games, just that trying to compare it to murder and saying it's the same thing because "both can be traumatic" is borderline insanity
    This is a good point, I see what you're getting at.
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  34. Post #194
    Gold Member
    Elspin's Avatar
    December 2006
    5,367 Posts
    This, specifically, is what bothers me.

    You know when you watch the news and they say "a local man sustained a gun shot wound and is in critical condition"? Yeah, that person isn't dead. They're on a table in some hospital, dying, slowly. The fact is people don't just get hit with a bullet and 'shut down' right away. They spend minutes or even hours in agony before they die.

    But even if it was instant/painless, would that make it any less tragic? I don't think the loss of a life is anything to scoff at.
    Are you even trying to hide your attempt at trying to take a non-existent moral high ground anymore? I never at any point said the loss of a life isn't tragic, just that it's possible to portray the loss of a life in a video game that is in no way traumatic, no it's not exactly realistic for every final shot to immediately end someone's life, but it's not so cheap that it's taken people out of amazing games like half life 2 is it? Whereas there just isn't a way to do the same with rape, it will always be traumatic if done even slightly realistically.

  35. Post #195
    Gold Member

    March 2005
    3,028 Posts
    i'm starting to sound like a broken record here: are we still talking about games?
    Media in general, as a reflection of our priorities as a society.

    Edited:

    Are you even trying to hide your attempt at trying to take a non-existent moral high ground anymore? I never at any point said the loss of a life isn't tragic, just that it's possible to portray the loss of a life in a video game that is in no way traumatic, no it's not exactly realistic for every final shot to immediately end someone's life, but it's not so cheap that it's taken people out of amazing games like half life 2 is it? Whereas there just isn't a way to do the same with rape, it will always be traumatic if done even slightly realistically.
    Santitization is the absolute worst way you can handle violent subject matter. People need to see exactly how disgusting murder is so that they don't vote for warmongering politicians.
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  36. Post #196
    I'd buy that for a dollar
    Dennab
    September 2008
    5,876 Posts
    How in fuck would you rape her? You would have to be one hell of a badass.
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  37. Post #197
    I am a pasty white nerd who gets offended for black people because I have nothing better to do
    TheHydra's Avatar
    July 2006
    5,877 Posts
    some ugly dirty nerds also cried when Aries died so no i would say a game could impact you that emotionally.
    i don't even know why people cried over that. she was a boring character who you didn't even get to know very well, and her death was as random and pointless as your average family guy cutaway gag.
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  38. Post #198
    #lmao #owned
    Hamsterjuice's Avatar
    January 2009
    4,559 Posts
    i wasn't upset when she died, i was annoyed
    she was my designated healer

  39. Post #199
    Bentham's Avatar
    January 2012
    1,802 Posts
    i don't even know why people cried over that. she was a boring character who you didn't even get to know very well, and her death was as random and pointless as your average family guy cutaway gag.
    I was just glad I didn't waste time getting her ultimate. If I'd gotten her ultimate I'd be heartbroken.

  40. Post #200
    I'm different!
    Doctor Zedacon's Avatar
    July 2006
    13,989 Posts
    How in fuck would you rape her? You would have to be one hell of a badass.
    Well, she's a teenager stranded on an island who has never really done any of the things she has become known for.