1. Post #41
    No such thing as overkill.
    catbarf's Avatar
    January 2007
    7,888 Posts
    The fact that she was so surprised at being silenced after making an asinine, out-of-place comment like

    "And finally, Mr. Speaker, I'm flattered that you're all so interested in my vagina, but 'no' means 'no'."
    makes me think there may be just a little more to this than the ridiculously one-sided reporting indicates. I'm going to wait to hear the other side of the story before passing judgment.
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  2. Post #42
    The Union Jack would look a shit ton better with a Hammer and Sickle in the middle of it
    Bobie's Avatar
    November 2007
    7,262 Posts
    The fact that she was so surprised at being silenced after making an asinine, out-of-place comment like



    makes me think there may be just a little more to this than the ridiculously one-sided reporting indicates. I'm going to wait to hear the other side of the story before passing judgment.
    it makes me wonder why men are allowed to be the majority in a vote which regards only women anyway.
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  3. Post #43
    Dennab
    February 2008
    1,355 Posts
    Abe Lincoln, look at what your party has become.
    And no one was surprised that one of the most autocratic presidents in American history, second only to Woodrow Wilson, would have spawned this sort of mess.
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  4. Post #44
    Gold Member
    The golden's Avatar
    June 2005
    15,592 Posts
    If there is anyone that should be banned on speaking about abortion it's men. They have nothing to do with it and it does not affect them in ANY way.
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  5. Post #45
    No such thing as overkill.
    catbarf's Avatar
    January 2007
    7,888 Posts
    it makes me wonder why men are allowed to be the majority in a vote which regards only women anyway.
    I agree but I don't think that's really the issue here. It's not about having an opinion, it's about how you present it. No legislator, regardless of gender, gets to make over-the-top sensationalist statements in state legislature like 'I'm flattered that you're all so interested in my vagina' complete with reference to rape to score points on the usual hyperbolic word games, then turn around and defend the statement by playing on medical definitions as if she was dryly stating facts and some Puritan got upset that she used the word 'vagina'. That's just ridiculous.
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  6. Post #46
    This entire abortion thing is stupid. The babies don't have any consciousness at that age, they have as much consciousness as a fucking tree. It's not murder if it doesn't know it exists.
    So, it's coo' to kill someone brain dead even if you're some futuristic situation and can cure it?
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  7. Post #47
    Gold Member
    JeanLuc761's Avatar
    March 2010
    8,029 Posts
    So, it's coo' to kill someone brain dead even if you're some futuristic situation and can cure it?
    How can that even be compared to an abortion? There's no way I can think of to "cure" an unwanted child.
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  8. Post #48
    Gold Member
    The golden's Avatar
    June 2005
    15,592 Posts
    So, it's coo' to kill someone brain dead even if you're some futuristic situation and can cure it?
    Most of the time abortions are had because the parent(s) cannot afford to raise a child for various reasons. The cause of the pregnancy can be everything from a broken condom to a rape.

    So you're saying you would rather that child grow up and be forced to live a life of hardship and suffering, knowing they were an accident or a product of rape?

    I'm sure they would love that. As would the parents!
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  9. Post #49
    Most of the time abortions are had because the parent(s) cannot afford to raise a child for various reasons. The cause of the pregnancy can be everything from a broken condom to a rape.

    So you're saying you would rather that child grow up and be forced to live a life of hardship and suffering, knowing they were an accident or a product of rape?

    I'm sure they would love that. As would the parents!
    mate-o, I'm pro abortion. For the reasons you stated. I'm attacking that argument, not the point the argument is defending.

    Baby has no consciousness but will have it in 9 months when he is born, but it's not murder to abort the birth

    Man has no consciousness but will have it in 9 months when he is cured, but it's not murder to abort the cure.

    That's my reasoning.

    Edited:

    How can that even be compared to an abortion? There's no way I can think of to "cure" an unwanted child.
    Dude, what? The "cure" in the man scenario is analogous to the birth in the baby scenario. The point where they gain their consciousness.

  10. Post #50
    The Union Jack would look a shit ton better with a Hammer and Sickle in the middle of it
    Bobie's Avatar
    November 2007
    7,262 Posts
    mate-o, I'm pro abortion. For the reasons you stated. I'm attacking that argument, not the point the argument is defending.

    Baby has no consciousness but will have it in 9 months when he is born, but it's not murder to abort the birth

    Man has no consciousness but will have it in 9 months when he is cured, but it's not murder to abort the cure.

    That's my reasoning.

    Edited:



    Dude, what? The "cure" in the man scenario is analogous to the birth in the baby scenario. The point where they gain their consciousness.
    what can you define as consciousness though? the ability to understand your own emotions and acknowledge yourself? because most babies dont have that until 1-2 years old, and given that everything is alive at every stage before, during and after conception its not as if life comes from nowhere during the foetal stages.

    how consciousness is defined is a debate within itself

  11. Post #51
    what can you define as consciousness though? the ability to understand your own emotions and acknowledge yourself? because most babies dont have that until 1-2 years old, and given that everything is alive at every stage before, during and after conception its not as if life comes from nowhere during the foetal stages.

    how consciousness is defined is a debate within itself
    Agreed, but I'm going with what the guy I was answering went. Honestly, my point has nothing to do with babies or birth or consciousness.

    Taking things away from someone when they have it or stopping them from every getting it are equal in wrongness. (Disregarding the consequences of the world's reaction to the loss. Since we're investigating murder, the man doesn't even have that (let's disregard its family, role in society, etc, we all agree murder is evil even when no one but the victim cares))

    My point is that whether someone is murdered or not doesn't actually matter. What does matter is what you deprive the person of.

    Edited:

    If there is anyone that should be banned on speaking about abortion it's men. They have nothing to do with it and it does not affect them in ANY way.
    Abortion is going to reduce population growth, that's one reason men are effected. Hell, many arguments are religion-based. In the fundies' view, you're offending the most perfect form existing, I'd be pretty pissed, too.

  12. Post #52
    USER HAS BEEN DISCONNECTED FROM REALITY - RETRY CONNECTION IN 5 MINUTES
    Dennab
    February 2006
    22,239 Posts
    what can you define as consciousness though? the ability to understand your own emotions and acknowledge yourself? because most babies dont have that until 1-2 years old, and given that everything is alive at every stage before, during and after conception its not as if life comes from nowhere during the foetal stages.

    how consciousness is defined is a debate within itself
    So then why not just be consistent? When is a human considered dead? When the heart stops beating? Or how about when all brain activity ceases?

    So then a fetus is a living, human being when the heart begins beating, or whenever brain activity begins, respectively.

  13. Post #53
    "Land of the Free" - Unless the Republicans have their way, then it's "Land of the wealthy caucasian Christians"
    Especially Clarence Thomas, Herman Cain and Richard Nixon.

    Edited:

    it makes me wonder why men are allowed to be the majority in a vote which regards only women anyway.
    Because men were babies once too.

    Edited:

    The best part of the abortion debate is how both sides frame the issue in completely opposite ways so nothing ever goes anywhere and it descends into shouting and hatred.

  14. Post #54
    Gold Member
    Raidyr's Avatar
    February 2007
    23,697 Posts
    Especially Clarence Thomas, Herman Cain and Richard Nixon.

    Edited:



    Because men were babies once too.

    Edited:

    The best part of the abortion debate is how both sides frame the issue in completely opposite ways so nothing ever goes anywhere and it descends into shouting and hatred.
    There's no two sides to the abortion debate. The fact that we are even having a debate over womens reproductive rights is ridiculous.
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  15. Post #55
    The Union Jack would look a shit ton better with a Hammer and Sickle in the middle of it
    Bobie's Avatar
    November 2007
    7,262 Posts
    Especially Clarence Thomas, Herman Cain and Richard Nixon.

    Edited:



    Because men were babies once too.

    Edited:

    The best part of the abortion debate is how both sides frame the issue in completely opposite ways so nothing ever goes anywhere and it descends into shouting and hatred.
    men were babies once too yes, but a man cannot force a woman to have an abortion, and a man cannot tell a woman to not have an abortion.
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  16. Post #56
    No such thing as overkill.
    catbarf's Avatar
    January 2007
    7,888 Posts
    There's no two sides to the abortion debate. The fact that we are even having a debate over womens reproductive rights is ridiculous.
    Personally I'd rather live in a world where we have to seriously debate whether or not to terminate human life rather than one where it's okayed without any opposition, even though I'm firmly pro-choice. Some things need to be thoroughly considered before we as a society accept them, and any question of ending human life qualifies. We should never be gung-ho about killing.
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  17. Post #57
    Gold Member
    [Seed Eater]'s Avatar
    July 2011
    5,698 Posts
    It's funny how in his day the Republicans were the good guys (Wanting to end slavery and shit.) and Democrats were the bad guys (Wanted to keep slavery.) and somehow the Republicans decided to trade all their smart people for the democratic's idiot people.

    The last half-decent republican president was probably Reagan. At least he actually got shit done. (Bringing down inflation, brought down unemployment rate, etc.)

    Now it's just "who's the crazier republican!?", at least Newt wants to go into a space even for silly reasons.
    The Republican Party started out as a progressive party with Lincoln. The early Republican party was extremely 'liberal' and progressive, even by today's standards, and the ranks of Republican supporters were stuffed with communists and socialists, especially German immigrants. The Republicans were still progressive for a long time- prime example is Theodore Roosevelt, who served as a Republican president before running again with the Progressive Party. FDR was the first to make the huge switch by being a Democrat who followed progressive policies, but the party lines and full switch wouldn't come until 1968 when the Democratic National Convention and all its protests and violence lead to a total redirecting of the Democratic Party to what we see today- liberal, progressive, anti-war, pro-equality, etc.

    Reagan was still a Republican and followed today's standard, he was hardly any different than Bush Sr. or GWB, and is considerably more Republican fundamentalist than either Romney or McCain, the only difference being that we remember Reagan not because of his social/cultural views, but his economic successes, which were only so in the short run and did not provide a long-term fix for the problems of the time.
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  18. Post #58
    Gold Member
    Raidyr's Avatar
    February 2007
    23,697 Posts
    Personally I'd rather live in a world where we have to seriously debate whether or not to terminate human life rather than one where it's okayed without any opposition, even though I'm firmly pro-choice. Some things need to be thoroughly considered before we as a society accept them, and any question of ending human life qualifies. We should never be gung-ho about killing.
    If you want to talk about the details of an abortion that's okay but it shouldn't even be on a national level because that's pretty confidential. I'm saying the debate surrounding even letting women abort their pregnancies outside of very extreme circumstances.

    It's their womb, their body. The government shouldn't be handling it. Should be between a woman and her doctor.
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  19. Post #59
    Gold Member
    The golden's Avatar
    June 2005
    15,592 Posts
    If you want to talk about the details of an abortion that's okay but it shouldn't even be on a national level because that's pretty confidential. I'm saying the debate surrounding even letting women abort their pregnancies outside of very extreme circumstances.

    It's their womb, their body. The government shouldn't be handling it. Should be between a woman and her doctor.
    It's her womb, her body, and her child. It is made of cells that are being fed by her own body. It is literally physically attached to her. If someone thinks they have the right to deny her the right to decide what to do with it then they need to fuck RIGHT off.
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  20. Post #60
    Gold Member
    bord2tears's Avatar
    May 2005
    1,813 Posts
    I wish more (US) politicians had Lisa Brown's figurative balls.

  21. Post #61
    gay mexican
    Lankist's Avatar
    July 2006
    14,576 Posts
    It's her womb, her body, and her child. It is made of cells that are being fed by her own body. It is literally physically attached to her. If someone thinks they have the right to deny her the right to decide what to do with it then they need to fuck RIGHT off.
    On a biological level, embryos are more akin to parasites than human life. They can't survive on their own, they can't reproduce, and the embryo will literally cannibalize the mother's body if it isn't getting enough sustenance.

    This romanticized view of pregnancy and childbirth has got to stop. It's horrible. The whole process is awful, from beginning to end. There is nothing intrinsically beautiful about a parasitic organism fucking with your everything for nine months straight before violently tearing its way out of a hole ten sizes too small. I mean the kid is fine once it's out, but pregnancy and childbirth isn't undergone beneath a rainbow and sunshine sparkles, and it's a hell of a lot more dangerous for the mother than most people care to realize.

    I've seen the process. It's the worst thing I have ever seen. Ever. No woman should be forced to undergo that process if she doesn't want to.
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  22. Post #62
    Gold Member
    The golden's Avatar
    June 2005
    15,592 Posts
    On a biological level, embryos are more akin to parasites than human life. They can't survive on their own, they can't reproduce, and the embryo will literally cannibalize the mother's body if it isn't getting enough sustenance.

    This romanticized view of pregnancy and childbirth has got to stop. It's horrible. The whole process is awful, from beginning to end. There is nothing intrinsically beautiful about a parasitic organism fucking with your everything for nine months straight before violently tearing its way out of a hole ten sizes too small. I mean the kid is fine once it's out, but pregnancy and childbirth isn't undergone beneath a rainbow and sunshine sparkles, and it's a hell of a lot more dangerous for the mother than most people care to realize.

    I've seen the process. It's the worst thing I have ever seen. Ever.
    The more reason that the mother should get to decide what to do with it.
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  23. Post #63
    Ms. Andry
    Dori's Avatar
    August 2005
    10,038 Posts
    married men don't like the idea of not being able to control every aspect of their wife's life
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  24. Post #64
    Gold Member
    Raidyr's Avatar
    February 2007
    23,697 Posts
    On a biological level, embryos are more akin to parasites than human life. They can't survive on their own, they can't reproduce, and the embryo will literally cannibalize the mother's body if it isn't getting enough sustenance.

    This romanticized view of pregnancy and childbirth has got to stop. It's horrible. The whole process is awful, from beginning to end. There is nothing intrinsically beautiful about a parasitic organism fucking with your everything for nine months straight before violently tearing its way out of a hole ten sizes too small. I mean the kid is fine once it's out, but pregnancy and childbirth isn't undergone beneath a rainbow and sunshine sparkles, and it's a hell of a lot more dangerous for the mother than most people care to realize.

    I've seen the process. It's the worst thing I have ever seen. Ever. No woman should be forced to undergo that process if she doesn't want to.
    jesus christ
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  25. Post #65
    It's her womb, her body, and her child. It is made of cells that are being fed by her own body. It is literally physically attached to her. If someone thinks they have the right to deny her the right to decide what to do with it then they need to fuck RIGHT off.
    And it's a man's money, what right have you to tell him he has to give a part to the government? if someone wants to permanently be infected with some contagious disease, it's their body, yes, but that doesn't mean it doesn't effect other people. And hell, even if it doesn't, why should you be allowed to choose for yourself? You don't allow children to do so because they don't know what's best. You could extend that to a lot of people over a lot of areas.

  26. Post #66
    Ms. Andry
    Dori's Avatar
    August 2005
    10,038 Posts
    And it's a man's money, what right have you to tell him he has to give a part to the government? if someone wants to permanently be infected with some contagious disease, it's their body, yes, but that doesn't mean it doesn't effect other people. And hell, even if it doesn't, why should you be allowed to choose for yourself? You don't allow children to do so because they don't know what's best. You could extend that to a lot of people over a lot of areas.
    wait so women are basically children who can't decide for themselves?

  27. Post #67
    Gold Member
    The golden's Avatar
    June 2005
    15,592 Posts
    And it's a man's money, what right have you to tell him he has to give a part to the government? if someone wants to permanently be infected with some contagious disease, it's their body, yes, but that doesn't mean it doesn't effect other people. And hell, even if it doesn't, why should you be allowed to choose for yourself? You don't allow children to do so because they don't know what's best. You could extend that to a lot of people over a lot of areas.
    If someone thinks they have the right to deny her the right to decide what to do with it then they need to fuck RIGHT off.

  28. Post #68
    There's no two sides to the abortion debate. The fact that we are even having a debate over wholesale murder is ridiculous.
    FTFY.
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  29. Post #69
    gay mexican
    Lankist's Avatar
    July 2006
    14,576 Posts
    And it's a man's money
    Money does NOT overrule rights.

    If given the choice between you being poor or having someone else's rights being marginalized, I hope you like soup kitchens.

  30. Post #70
    Gold Member
    darkedone02's Avatar
    February 2006
    2,620 Posts
    yep, freedom of speech my ass...

  31. Post #71
    married men don't like the idea of not being able to control every aspect of their wife's life
    Whereas women?

  32. Post #72
    Gold Member
    The golden's Avatar
    June 2005
    15,592 Posts
    Most of the time abortions are had because the parent(s) cannot afford to raise a child for various reasons. The cause of the pregnancy can be everything from a broken condom to a rape.

    So you're saying you would rather that child grow up and be forced to live a life of hardship and suffering, knowing they were an accident or a product of rape?

    I'm sure they would love that. As would the parents!
    Apparently Capitulazyguy would rather have young children live in poverty and suffering.
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  33. Post #73
    gay mexican
    Lankist's Avatar
    July 2006
    14,576 Posts
    Whereas women?
    Do not have the political clout to control their own bodies, let alone a man's.

  34. Post #74
    Apparently The golden would rather have millions of children murdered before they were even allowed to live because their future lives were deemed unpleasant by a sick cabal who claim to be progressive and pro-civil liberties.

    Edited:

    "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" - The pursuit of happiness comes after life, which is more important.

    Edited:

    Do not have the political clout to control their own bodies, let alone a man's.
    Hey, was I talking to you?
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  35. Post #75
    Gold Member
    The golden's Avatar
    June 2005
    15,592 Posts
    Apparently The golden would rather have millions of children murdered before they were even allowed to live because their future lives were deemed unpleasant by a sick cabal who claim to be progressive and pro-civil liberties.
    Does the thought even cross your mind that maybe the reason women have abortions is because they cannot support the child they are carrying?

    Wait no - it doesn't. You would rather ruin the lives of the mother, the father, and the child - and put huge strain on governmental support services to boot.
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  36. Post #76
    gay mexican
    Lankist's Avatar
    July 2006
    14,576 Posts
    Hey, was I talking to you?
    I don't care.

    Hey, look up the legal definition of "murder" please.

    If anything, what you're accusing these delinquent women if is negligent manslaughter.

    If you're going to levy pretend charges against people at least have the courtesy to know what the charges are.
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  37. Post #77
    You can go fuck yourself, too, golden, that's not an argument.
    wait so women are basically children who can't decide for themselves?
    No, dude, it was just an argument against the statement that no one except the woman can choose what happens to her. Because whether it's right or not doesn't depend on what she thinks. The question needs to be examined by every one.

    Money does NOT overrule rights.

    If given the choice between you being poor or having someone else's rights being marginalized, I hope you like soup kitchens.
    I'm sorry, but I don't follow. Are you saying someone's possession is less "his" than his body? I don't see why you should draw the line of property you can take randomly like that.
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  38. Post #78
    fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart fart
    Kinglah Crab's Avatar
    November 2007
    7,815 Posts
    This is why you move to Canada
    ...and deal with harper's shitlord conservatives
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  39. Post #79
    gay mexican
    Lankist's Avatar
    July 2006
    14,576 Posts
    Does the thought even cross your mind that maybe the reason women have abortions is because they cannot support the child they are carrying?

    Wait no - it doesn't. You would rather ruin the lives of the mother, the father, and the child - and put huge strain on governmental support services to boot.
    Also not-ruin the life of the rapist and potentially kill the mother.

    Pregnancy complications are WAY more common than people like to think, and considering the female body puts precedence on the child rather than the mother, fatalities for both are a serious risk. Add that modern medicine is STILL completely phallocentric, using the male physiology as the baseline for everyone, and that treatments for pregnancy complications are woefully underdeveloped. Carrying a child is fucking dangerous.

    Edited:

    I'm sorry, but I don't follow. Are you saying someone's possession is less "his" than his body? I don't see why you should draw the line of property you can take randomly like that.
    Your possessions are worth less than the rights of the individual. I don't care if everything you own burns to the fucking ground, that doesn't justify egregious violations of civil liberties. You will go to the fucking poorhouse before you tell anyone what they can and cannot do with their own body.
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  40. Post #80
    I don't care.

    Hey, look up the legal definition of "murder" please.

    If anything, what you're accusing these delinquent women if is negligent manslaughter.

    If you're going to levy pretend charges against people at least have the courtesy to know what the charges are.
    "Hi, I'm Lankist. I'm a lawyer and I'm going to sperg about legal terms on the internet with teenagers because I have no other way to feel superior."
    I mean godDAMN man, I'm just having fun with this shit.

    Edited:

    And to prove I'm not backpedalling:
    Does the thought even cross your mind that maybe the reason women have abortions is because they cannot support the child they are carrying?

    Wait no - it doesn't. You would rather ruin the lives of the mother, the father, and the child - and put huge strain on governmental support services to boot.
    Being alive and poor is better than being dead. You can stop being poor.
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