1. Post #81
    kill yourself
    Protocol7's Avatar
    June 2006
    25,904 Posts
    I don't understand all the fuss over whether or not this is considered a tax. I'm all for tax increases if they're for the betterment of social programs and social welfare (in my own opinion, of course).
    The political forum jerks itself off over buzzwords
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  2. Post #82
    Gold Member
    Van-man's Avatar
    August 2009
    15,159 Posts
    We are all going to be forced to get RFID chips now. Goodbye freedom.
    Whoops, looks like you've dropped your tinfoil hat.
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  3. Post #83
    Gold Member
    Sgt Doom's Avatar
    March 2005
    20,215 Posts
    When do they start subsidizing? I know quite a few people who can't afford health insurance.
    I'm not sure when it goes into effect. Large chunks of the bill are slated to go into effect in 2014.

  4. Post #84
    NeonpieDFTBA's Avatar
    January 2012
    955 Posts
    With real insurance people with poor lifestyle choices and pre existing conditions have to pay a higher premium or not get approved at all because its not insurance if they're guaranteed to have a health problem with 100% certainty . Under this law they get to pay the same rate, so companies will just raise the rate for everyone to cover their losses. It amounts to an overall subsidy from the healthy to the unhealthy
    While I myself have grievances with 'poor lifestyle choices' (not much you can do about it though), the fact that those with pre-existing conditions have to pay more or not get insurance at all is one of my largest qualms with insurance (that, the expense and the fact it doesn't cover everyone).

  5. Post #85
    Gold Member
    POLOPOZOZO's Avatar
    May 2006
    14,943 Posts
    Don't expect them to penalize you before assisting in paying the premiums...

  6. Post #86
    kill yourself
    Protocol7's Avatar
    June 2006
    25,904 Posts
    While I myself have grievances with 'poor lifestyle choices' (not much you can do about it though), the fact that those with pre-existing conditions have to pay more or not get insurance at all is one of my largest qualms with insurance (that, the expense and the fact it doesn't cover everyone).
    We can't change insurance now because my mom is disabled and nobody wants to insure someone with a pre-existing condition

    But that was something she couldn't have avoided. Bad lifestyle choices like smoking, I don't want to be financially accountable for that. Other cases? Yeah.

    I'm not saying we should not insure people who smoke, but there should be more measures to deter people from smoking.

  7. Post #87
    NeonpieDFTBA's Avatar
    January 2012
    955 Posts
    We can't change insurance now because my mom is disabled and nobody wants to insure someone with a pre-existing condition

    But that was something she couldn't have avoided. Bad lifestyle choices like smoking, I don't want to be financially accountable for that. Other cases? Yeah.

    I'm not saying we should not insure people who smoke, but there should be more measures to deter people from smoking.
    Smoking is a giant moral dilemma for me, because I hate that my Mum (and in future I myself will) pay for their habits, but I still could not justify turning them away for treatment.

  8. Post #88
    USER HAS BEEN DISCONNECTED FROM REALITY - RETRY CONNECTION IN 5 MINUTES
    Dennab
    February 2006
    22,239 Posts
    I don't know what I'm going to do when the mandate kicks in. This is actually sort of scary for me.

  9. Post #89
    Gold Member
    parket's Avatar
    May 2011
    1,168 Posts
    help I have to contribute towards better society as a whole fUCKING OBAMA
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  10. Post #90
    -nesto-'s Avatar
    September 2007
    3,864 Posts
    I don't understand all the fuss over whether or not this is considered a tax. I'm all for tax increases if they're for the betterment of social programs and social welfare (in my own opinion, of course).
    Most people are upset because Obama said he would never raise taxes or tax you for his health plan. Now, to save his bill, he went with taxing to make it constitutional.

  11. Post #91
    Chicken_Chaser's Avatar
    June 2010
    4,370 Posts
    Most people are upset because Obama said he would never raise taxes or tax you for his health plan. Now, to save his bill, he went with taxing to make it constitutional.
    At least Democrats are happy.

  12. Post #92
    SUPER SWELL FELLOW
    Phrozen99's Avatar
    May 2006
    2,342 Posts
    Most people are upset because Obama said he would never raise taxes or tax you for his health plan. Now, to save his bill, he went with taxing to make it constitutional.
    That's exactly what happened, and that will hurt his campaign. If Romney wins you can expect him to do something about this bill.

  13. Post #93
    Gold Member
    smurfy's Avatar
    October 2007
    21,849 Posts
    Fox News coverage


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  14. Post #94
    This probably isn't a good idea
    Camundongo's Avatar
    October 2007
    3,381 Posts
    We can't change insurance now because my mom is disabled and nobody wants to insure someone with a pre-existing condition

    But that was something she couldn't have avoided. Bad lifestyle choices like smoking, I don't want to be financially accountable for that. Other cases? Yeah.

    I'm not saying we should not insure people who smoke, but there should be more measures to deter people from smoking.
    In the UK, as far as I'm aware the duty on tobacco more than covers the cost of treating tobacco related illness by the NHS. It's a simple way of getting round that issue (although the NHS also runs stop smoking clinics).

  15. Post #95
    Gold Member
    smurfy's Avatar
    October 2007
    21,849 Posts
    Apparently CNN and Fox both reported that it had been struck down in a desperate attempt to break the news first
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  16. Post #96
    Project Lead, Internet Explorer for Linux
    lavacano's Avatar
    October 2008
    14,548 Posts
    Shit, they decided today.

    I told myself I'd go get a gun before they decided, because I knew no matter what they said I'd need it to even survive going to the store for the next couple of days. But then they went and decided and now I'm not ready. And if I went and got one today, they'd think I was mobilizing against the government or something and lock me up.
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  17. Post #97

    January 2010
    1,271 Posts
    And if I went and got one today, they'd think I was mobilizing against the government or something and lock me up.
    Hi welcome to America, we are really fucked up, but you won't be arrested for buying a gun, not today or any day. Actually the gun store owner would probably tell you to buy a lot for the incoming shit storm.
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  18. Post #98
    Project Lead, Internet Explorer for Linux
    lavacano's Avatar
    October 2008
    14,548 Posts
    Hi welcome to America, we are really fucked up, but you won't be arrested for buying a gun, not today or any day. Actually the gun store owner would probably tell you to buy a lot for the incoming shit storm.
    The guy at the gun store would get it. The other customers would get it.

    But there is that "run this guy through the cops" process, and they'd probably assume the worst. There's no way to prove either way so even though I don't know enough about the bill to give two shits about it personally they're going to assume I'm strongly against this bill (because it looks to me like the "for side" has won here) and they're going to act against me. Because most cops around here are assholes.

  19. Post #99
    Mind Infection's Avatar
    March 2009
    285 Posts
    Hi welcome to America, we are really fucked up, but you won't be arrested for buying a gun, not today or any day. Actually the gun store owner would probably tell you to buy a lot for the incoming shit storm.
    Where true Americans move to Canada.

  20. Post #100
    kill yourself
    Protocol7's Avatar
    June 2006
    25,904 Posts
    The guy at the gun store would get it. The other customers would get it.

    But there is that "run this guy through the cops" process, and they'd probably assume the worst. There's no way to prove either way so even though I don't know enough about the bill to give two shits about it personally they're going to assume I'm strongly against this bill (because it looks to me like the "for side" has won here) and they're going to act against me. Because most cops around here are assholes.
    Cops can be assholes but they won't arrest you for a firearm purchase.
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  21. Post #101
    Gold Member
    Led Zeppelin's Avatar
    February 2007
    1,034 Posts
    The guy at the gun store would get it. The other customers would get it.

    But there is that "run this guy through the cops" process, and they'd probably assume the worst. There's no way to prove either way so even though I don't know enough about the bill to give two shits about it personally they're going to assume I'm strongly against this bill (because it looks to me like the "for side" has won here) and they're going to act against me. Because most cops around here are assholes.
    What on earth are you talking about?
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  22. Post #102
    Gold Member
    ewitwins's Avatar
    December 2009
    14,183 Posts
    Shit, they decided today.

    I told myself I'd go get a gun before they decided, because I knew no matter what they said I'd need it to even survive going to the store for the next couple of days. But then they went and decided and now I'm not ready. And if I went and got one today, they'd think I was mobilizing against the government or something and lock me up.
    This is dumb, and you should feel dumb for saying it.

    How the hell does a mandate for healthcare = government gone fascist?
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  23. Post #103
    Gold Member
    waxrock's Avatar
    October 2006
    3,180 Posts
    What people call "Obamacare" is actually the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. However, people were calling it "Obamacare" before everyone even hammered out what it would be. It's a term mostly used by people who don't like the PPaACA, and it's become popularized in part because PPaACA is a really long and awkward name, even when you turn it into an acronym like that.
    Anyway, the PPaACA made a bunch of new rules regarding health care, with the purpose of making health care more affordable for everyone. Opponents of the PPaACA, on the other hand, feel that the rules it makes take away too many freedoms and force people (both individuals and businesses) to do things they shouldn't have to.
    So what does it do? Well, here is everything, in the order of when it goes into effect (because some of it happens later than other parts of it):
    Already in effect:
    It allows the Food and Drug Administration to approve more generic drugs (making for more competition in the market to drive down prices)
    It increases the rebates on drugs people get through Medicare (so drugs cost less)
    It establishes a non-profit group, that the government doesn't directly control, to study different kinds of treatments to see what works better and is the best use of money.
    It makes chain restaurants like McDonalds display how many calories are in all of their foods, so people can have an easier time making choices to eat healthy.
    It makes a "high-risk pool" for people with pre-existing conditions. Basically, this is a way to slowly ease into getting rid of "pre-existing conditions" altogether. For now, people who already have health issues that would be considered "pre-existing conditions" can still get insurance, but at different rates than people without them.
    It renews some old policies, and calls for the appointment of various positions.
    It creates a new 10% tax on indoor tanning booths.
    It says that health insurance companies can no longer tell customers that they won't get any more coverage because they have hit a "lifetime limit". Basically, if someone has paid for life insurance, that company can't tell that person that he's used that insurance too much throughout his life so they won't cover him any more. They can't do this for lifetime spending, and they're limited in how much they can do this for yearly spending.
    Kids can continue to be covered by their parents' health insurance until they're 26.
    No more "pre-existing conditions" for kids under the age of 19.
    Insurers have less ability to change the amount customers have to pay for their plans.
    People in a "Medicare Gap" get a rebate to make up for the extra money they would otherwise have to spend.
    Insurers can't just drop customers once they get sick.
    Insurers have to tell customers what they're spending money on. (Instead of just "administrative fee", they have to be more specific).
    Insurers need to have an appeals process for when they turn down a claim, so customers have some manner of recourse other than a lawsuit when they're turned down.
    New ways to stop fraud are created.
    Medicare extends to smaller hospitals.
    Medicare patients with chronic illnesses must be monitored more thoroughly.
    Reduces the costs for some companies that handle benefits for the elderly.
    A new website is made to give people insurance and health information.
    A credit program is made that will make it easier for business to invest in new ways to treat illness.
    A limit is placed on just how much of a percentage of the money an insurer makes can be profit, to make sure they're not price-gouging customers.
    A limit is placed on what type of insurance accounts can be used to pay for over-the-counter drugs without a prescription. Basically, your insurer isn't paying for the Aspirin you bought for that hangover.
    Employers need to list the benefits they provided to employees on their tax forms.
    8/1/2012
    Any health plans sold after this date must provide preventative care (mammograms, colonoscopies, etc.) without requiring any sort of co-pay or charge.
    1/1/2013
    If you make over $200,000 a year, your taxes go up a tiny bit (0.9%)
    1/1/2014
    This is when a lot of the really big changes happen.
    No more "pre-existing conditions". At all. People will be charged the same regardless of their medical history.
    If you can afford insurance but do not get it, you will be charged a fee. This is the "mandate" that people are talking about. Basically, it's a trade-off for the "pre-existing conditions" bit, saying that since insurers now have to cover you regardless of what you have, you can't just wait to buy insurance until you get sick. Otherwise no one would buy insurance until they needed it. You can opt not to get insurance, but you'll have to pay the fee instead, unless of course you're not buying insurance because you just can't afford it.
    Insurer's now can't do annual spending caps. Their customers can get as much health care in a given year as they need.
    Make it so more poor people can get Medicare by making the low-income cut-off higher.
    Small businesses get some tax credits for two years.
    Businesses with over 50 employees must offer health insurance to full-time employees, or pay a penalty.
    Limits how high of an annual deductible insurers can charge customers.
    Cut some Medicare spending
    Place a $2500 limit on tax-free spending on FSAs (accounts for medical spending). Basically, people using these accounts now have to pay taxes on any money over $2500 they put into them.
    Establish health insurance exchanges and rebates for the lower-class, basically making it so poor people can get some medical coverage.
    Congress and Congressional staff will only be offered the same insurance offered to people in the insurance exchanges, rather than Federal Insurance. Basically, we won't be footing their health care bills any more than any other American citizen.
    A new tax on pharmaceutical companies.
    A new tax on the purchase of medical devices.
    A new tax on insurance companies based on their market share. Basically, the more of the market they control, the more they'll get taxed.
    The amount you can deduct from your taxes for medical expenses increases.
    1/1/2015
    Doctors' pay will be determined by the quality of their care, not how many people they treat.
    1/1/2017
    If any state can come up with their own plan, one which gives citizens the same level of care at the same price as the PPaACA, they can ask the Secretary of Health and Human Resources for permission to do their plan instead of the PPaACA. So if they can get the same results without, say, the mandate, they can be allowed to do so. Vermont, for example, has expressed a desire to just go straight to single-payer (in simple terms, everyone is covered, and medical expenses are paid by taxpayers).
    2018
    All health care plans must now cover preventative care (not just the new ones).
    A new tax on "Cadillac" health care plans (more expensive plans for rich people who want fancier coverage).
    2020
    The elimination of the "Medicare gap."
    Aaaaand that's it right there. The biggest thing opponents of the bill have against it is the mandate. They claim that it forces people to buy insurance, and forcing people to buy something in unconstitutional. Personally, I take the opposite view, as it's not telling people to buy a specific thing, just to have a specific type of thing, just like a part of the money we pay in taxes pays for the police and firemen who protect us, this would have us paying to ensure doctors can treat us for illness and injury. Plus, as previously mentioned, it's necessary if you're doing away with "pre-existing conditions" because otherwise no one would get insurance until they needed to use it, which defeats the purpose of insurance. Whew! Hope that answers the question!
    Stolen from reddit. Seems pretty good.
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  24. Post #104
    I'M A SHAAARK!
    Lambeth's Avatar
    October 2009
    14,832 Posts
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  25. Post #105
    Gold Member
    smurfy's Avatar
    October 2007
    21,849 Posts
    The guy at the gun store would get it. The other customers would get it.

    But there is that "run this guy through the cops" process, and they'd probably assume the worst. There's no way to prove either way so even though I don't know enough about the bill to give two shits about it personally they're going to assume I'm strongly against this bill (because it looks to me like the "for side" has won here) and they're going to act against me. Because most cops around here are assholes.
    It's true, every single person who buys a gun today will be arrested
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  26. Post #106
    N-12_Aden's Avatar
    April 2011
    2,790 Posts
    That's going on Facebook.

    All day long: "OMG I'm moving to canada. Damn that Barrack Hussein Obama!"

  27. Post #107
    Gold Member
    Mr. Someguy's Avatar
    March 2006
    24,151 Posts
    The guy at the gun store would get it. The other customers would get it.

    But there is that "run this guy through the cops" process, and they'd probably assume the worst. There's no way to prove either way so even though I don't know enough about the bill to give two shits about it personally they're going to assume I'm strongly against this bill (because it looks to me like the "for side" has won here) and they're going to act against me. Because most cops around here are assholes.
    Oh wait, you were serious?

    You should get checked out, you're way too paranoid.
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  28. Post #108
    We Are No Idiots
    Aide's Avatar
    March 2010
    4,726 Posts
    Looks like some republicans jumped the gun.




    Also appears CNN and FOX jumped the gun.
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  29. Post #109

    June 2012
    712 Posts


    From a white house email I got.

    I wasn't so sure about this because all the info I found when I researched it was incredibly biased towards one side but after a while, I'm glad this is happening.

  30. Post #110
    Chicken_Chaser's Avatar
    June 2010
    4,370 Posts
    To those against covering for those who smoke, are fat, etc. How do you justify helping those who practice MMA, or Ski, etc that get hurt whilst doing what they do?

  31. Post #111

    June 2012
    712 Posts
    To those against covering for those who smoke, are fat, etc. How do you justify helping those who practice MMA, or Ski, etc that get hurt whilst doing what they do?
    those are constructive activities and the direct result isn't health deterioration. Heck, doing anything can be a hazard to your health.

  32. Post #112
    Chicken_Chaser's Avatar
    June 2010
    4,370 Posts
    those are constructive activities and the direct result isn't health deterioration. Heck, doing anything can be a hazard to your health.
    Precisely why I think we shouldn't judge.

  33. Post #113
    Gold Member
    PvtCupcakes's Avatar
    May 2008
    10,900 Posts
    Listening to conservative radio owned today.

    Got to listen to all the cry babbies call in and call Obama a Nazi Communist and this is the end of the world (aka the US).

  34. Post #114
    Chicken_Chaser's Avatar
    June 2010
    4,370 Posts
    Listening to conservative radio owned today.

    Got to listen to all the cry babbies call in and call Obama a Nazi Communist and this is the end of the world (aka the US).
    After forever being disappointed I can finally just fucking laugh at conservatives. Take it, motherfuckers
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  35. Post #115
    Gold Member
    PvtCupcakes's Avatar
    May 2008
    10,900 Posts
    One loser literally said Obama was a Nazi, fascist, and a communist. Others were like "So we're living in a communist system now right?".
    lol these people are so fucking dumb it's hilarious.

    Edited:

    After forever being disappointed I can finally just fucking laugh at conservatives. Take it, motherfuckers
    Oh I laughed at them before too just for being retarded. But today was even better because they got the elbow from the sky. Double whammied with the Stolen Valor Act getting struck down.

  36. Post #116
    Gold Member
    Madman_Andre's Avatar
    November 2007
    7,239 Posts
    Fap Material for Emperor Scorpious II.

  37. Post #117
    Gold Member
    PvtCupcakes's Avatar
    May 2008
    10,900 Posts

    Republicans are the ones getting elbow dropped. The Supreme Court is the guy doing the elbowing.
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  38. Post #118
    Gold Member
    Lazor's Avatar
    July 2007
    9,254 Posts
    rip freedome 1776-2012
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  39. Post #119
    Gold Member
    V12US's Avatar
    August 2005
    4,614 Posts
    Regarding paying for people who smoke, someone in the Netherlands calculated that smokers end up being less of a burden on the system than healthy people. The reason for this was that there is a tax on tobacco, smokers pay more for healthcare and smokers die earlier than healthy people, so they end up costing the state less.


    Now it was all done rather jokingly, but still, lots of things tend to balance themselves out in the end.
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  40. Post #120
    Gold Member
    POLOPOZOZO's Avatar
    May 2006
    14,943 Posts
    rip freedome 1776-2012
    Obama: "I got your free dome right down here motherfucker"
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