1. Post #41
    -nesto-'s Avatar
    September 2007
    3,864 Posts
    Obama is going to win re-election then eh.
    Eh it's not set in stone yet. His administration and himself lied about making it a tax and then when it was looking like the bill would be killed they reverted to the tax clause. Romney will prolly call him out on it.

  2. Post #42
    Gold Member
    Devodiere's Avatar
    November 2009
    10,881 Posts
    Well, it's not that I don't want to help people that have health issues, such as a smoker with lung cancer. But they say prevention is the best medicine. It's kind of a gray area for me, I don't really want to restrict other people like that but at the same time if we have to pay more because people are using Obamacare to pay for medical visits to take care of their smoking-caused lung cancer...
    Well think of the guy with lung cancer. Is his first thought about not having to pay as much for healthcare, or is it that he has fucking lung cancer and probably doesn't want to go thousands into debt so he doesn't die.

    America really should just bite the bullet and get universal healthcare, even if it's got a private sector for voluntary procedures. We even have the smokers paying for their own healthcare with tax putting it to about $25 a pack. They're definitely not getting the good deal.
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  3. Post #43
    Chicken_Chaser's Avatar
    June 2010
    4,372 Posts
    R-money doesn't have a better alternative
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  4. Post #44
    -nesto-'s Avatar
    September 2007
    3,864 Posts
    about $25 a pack.
    Jesus, where the hell is that? That sounds way way off.

  5. Post #45
    Gold Member
    Led Zeppelin's Avatar
    February 2007
    1,034 Posts
    I would be thrilled if we could stop calling it Obamacare now.
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  6. Post #46
    Gold Member
    POLOPOZOZO's Avatar
    May 2006
    14,992 Posts
    I would be thrilled if we could stop calling it Obamacare now.
    He doesn't seem to mind it much, especially now that it's cleared the court he can claim credit for it really easily.

  7. Post #47
    Chief Martini's Avatar
    September 2009
    1,141 Posts
    wow obama socialist!1!!!!
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  8. Post #48
    Gold Member
    smurfy's Avatar
    October 2007
    22,047 Posts
    There's positives and negatives here.

    The healthcare mandate itself has some really stupid things in it, like the mandate part, where the government forces you to pay tax if you don't buy private insurance. That's forcing you to pay or to buy shitty private healthcare. Regulating that private healthcare is not a good enough excuse to force people to buy it. I've always thought that taxing in order to force someone to pay something is ridiculous and violates multiple fundamental rights and liberties. I totally disagree with this method. Government penalizing people for not buying a private product, that's silly.

    I'm glad we've gotten some reform, but t's still shit reform and the method by which people are expected to get that reform is silly and harmful. This was probably the worst method of reforming healthcare that had any benefit could possibly be. "We're going to make you buy healthcare, if you don't we're going to fine you. Sure, the healthcare is a tiny little bit better now, but it's still total shit and you're still paying a for-profit private provider."
    If the bill had been struck down, healthcare reform as a concept would have been dead for decades. Now there is the chance to build on it over time
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  9. Post #49
    MasterDragon
    Siminov's Avatar
    May 2009
    6,649 Posts
    The problem is that mandated health insurance is expensive, and the fines are expensive if you don't pay. So what happens when someone can pay neither?

  10. Post #50
    Chicken_Chaser's Avatar
    June 2010
    4,372 Posts
    The problem is that mandated health insurance is expensive, and the fines are expensive if you don't pay. So what happens when someone can pay neither?
    People that literally can not afford it are exempt I believe.
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  11. Post #51
    Gold Member
    POLOPOZOZO's Avatar
    May 2006
    14,992 Posts
    I don't like that it is a 5-4 decision though, at all.

    Every decision has been like this recently and it's very scary to see the highest court as divided as the rest of the country.

    Also I absolutely love the rhetoric behind opposition, these "small business owners" talking about how high-deductable plans are working great for them and keeping their workers from "going to the doctor frivolously" (in non-dickface terms, preventative healthcare).
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  12. Post #52
    MasterDragon
    Siminov's Avatar
    May 2009
    6,649 Posts
    People that literally can not afford it are exempt I believe.
    The problem is, my dad's business slowed drastically, and my mom's job doesn't make enough. We might seriously end up dead broke because of this.

    Don't be blaming us for this, I contributed and got laid off, and my parents both work to the bone.
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  13. Post #53
    lawl's Avatar
    July 2010
    156 Posts
    Rising costs for everyone.. guess I've got no choice but to vote for Romney now to repeal it
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  14. Post #54
    Gold Member
    POLOPOZOZO's Avatar
    May 2006
    14,992 Posts
    The problem is, my dad's business slowed drastically, and my mom's job doesn't make enough. We might seriously end up dead broke because of this.

    Don't be blaming us for this, I contributed and got laid off, and my parents both work to the bone.
    Lol guys pretty sure the whole point of this bill was to make consumer-end costs low through assistance and other things.

    Edited:

    Rising costs for everyone.. guess I've got no choice but to vote for Romney now to repeal it
    wow are you a genious
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  15. Post #55

    June 2012
    486 Posts
    The problem is that mandated health insurance is expensive, and the fines are expensive if you don't pay. So what happens when someone can pay neither?
    Shamelessly stolen from http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/201...young-workers/
    The fine for not purchasing health insurance under PPACA is $95 per person in 2014 (or 1% of taxable income, whichever is greater), $325 in 2015 (or 2%), and $695 in 2016 (or 2.5%). Thereafter, the mandate is indexed to inflation.

    In addition, many people are exempted from the mandate, such as those for whom premiums exceed 8 percent of household income. Hence, as premiums increase, more and more people will be exempted from the mandate.

    The size of the mandate’s penalty is puny in comparison to the cost of health insurance. According to the government’s Medical Expenditure Panel Survey (MEPS), the average premium for an individual plan in 2010 was $4,940. If we assume that premiums increase by 6 percent a year—the historical rate—the maximum $695 mandate will account for only 10 percent of average premiums.
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  16. Post #56
    MasterDragon
    Siminov's Avatar
    May 2009
    6,649 Posts
    Shamelessly stolen from http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/201...young-workers/
    The fine for not purchasing health insurance under PPACA is $95 per person in 2014 (or 1% of taxable income, whichever is greater), $325 in 2015 (or 2%), and $695 in 2016 (or 2.5%). Thereafter, the mandate is indexed to inflation.

    In addition, many people are exempted from the mandate, such as those for whom premiums exceed 8 percent of household income. Hence, as premiums increase, more and more people will be exempted from the mandate.

    The size of the mandate’s penalty is puny in comparison to the cost of health insurance. According to the government’s Medical Expenditure Panel Survey (MEPS), the average premium for an individual plan in 2010 was $4,940. If we assume that premiums increase by 6 percent a year—the historical rate—the maximum $695 mandate will account for only 10 percent of average premiums.
    Thanks, I've heard many rumors that the fine would be a ridiculous amount, like $1000 a person, and there would be very few exemptions.

    I feel a little better.
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  17. Post #57
    lawl's Avatar
    July 2010
    156 Posts
    If companies are mandated to cover unhealthy people your premiums are going up it's that simple

    Edited:

    And if employers are forced to provide coverage they'll cut back on wages and in many cases just fire people to reach the cutoff. People will be harmed by this law
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  18. Post #58

    January 2010
    1,271 Posts
    Wow... according to a congresswoman, "The world will end and everyone will die if we don't elect Mitt Romney and repeal "Obamacare"." This is what's wrong with the politics in this country right now. Jesus Christ.
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  19. Post #59
    Chicken_Chaser's Avatar
    June 2010
    4,372 Posts
    Wow... according to a congresswoman, "The world will end and everyone will die if we don't elect Mitt Romney and repeal "Obamacare"." This is what's wrong with the politics in this country right now. Jesus Christ.
    Well it's here to stay so she can save herself the stress and go die
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  20. Post #60
    Concur's Avatar
    December 2011
    1,964 Posts
    "this is not a tax"
    ...under the tax clause...

  21. Post #61

    June 2012
    486 Posts
    Thanks, I've heard many rumors that the fine would be a ridiculous amount, like $1000 a person, and there would be very few exemptions.

    I feel a little better.
    Its honestly just not that simple. Excempt from a fine does not mean you have insurance....

    I didnt answer that question of Siminov's though i did want to point out the fines themselves (as they stand) are not that bad...
    Supposedly the ppaca (lets face it you have no idea what that means so ill say obamacare) "subsidizes" insurance for the poor. But the law is a bit convoluted. For instance, as is, they can not ask your nationality (and so cant use that as cause to not subsidize you)

    Im fairly sure even ppl working 20 hours a week at minimum wage make more then migrant workers (and even if they dont the latter are called "undocumented" workers for a reason, and its not for the easily tracked pay stubs)

    A lot of the details need to be worked out before anyone can tell us what the details are lol.
    Repubs control the house/ dems control the senate- Operation fistfight is a gogogo

  22. Post #62

    January 2010
    1,271 Posts
    I really the extremism on both sides right now... it's like we are just short of people lighting themselves on fire in the streets... it's a big deal but come on, civility please.
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  23. Post #63
    -nesto-'s Avatar
    September 2007
    3,864 Posts
    Well it's here to stay so she can save herself the stress and go die
    Not quite. Congress can appeal it or someshit
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  24. Post #64
    Chicken_Chaser's Avatar
    June 2010
    4,372 Posts
    Not quite. Congress can appeal it or someshit
    It'll be a fight since Obama ain't leaving
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  25. Post #65
    Gold Member
    POLOPOZOZO's Avatar
    May 2006
    14,992 Posts
    Not quite. Congress can appeal it or someshit
    No it really can't, they'll never get enough votes.

    GAWD I can't wait to get home and watch the people bitch on Fox
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  26. Post #66

    January 2010
    1,271 Posts
    It'll be a fight since Obama ain't leaving
    "Can it at least be a clean fight?"--- He said living in a delusional America.

  27. Post #67
    Gold Member
    Sgt Doom's Avatar
    March 2005
    20,514 Posts
    The problem is that mandated health insurance is expensive, and the fines are expensive if you don't pay. So what happens when someone can pay neither?
    If you can't afford health insurance, then the government subsidises it for you. If you can't afford the fine, you don't have to pay it. Government also can't pursue legal means to force someone to pay it, and iirc people with religious reasons are exempt. (it's essentially a toothless fine. Not sure what the point of it even is, since they can't punish you for not paying it)

    I made a post about this in a thread about this a while ago, but can't remember when or where exactly :/
    And i'll be buggered if i'm going to read the whole damn bill again to find the clause. Wikipedia has a fairly decent summary of each provision and when it enters into effect, and it'll probably have a link somewhere to the actual text of the bill itself.

  28. Post #68
    Gold Member
    Madman_Andre's Avatar
    November 2007
    7,239 Posts
    It passed intact, but it was a 5-4 decision like every other fucking SCOTUS decision in the last ten years. Seriously, That shit just isn't right.
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  29. Post #69

    June 2012
    486 Posts
    If you can't afford health insurance, then the government subsidises it for you. If you can't afford the fine, you don't have to pay it. Government also can't pursue legal means to force someone to pay it (it's essentially a toothless fine. Not sure what the point of it even is, since they can't punish you for not paying it)
    The government will subsidy you- If you qualify. What those qualifications are, and how much $ will be used to subsidize pp (and where that $ will come from) is at this time unknown.
    It was a toothless fine mainly because obama couldnt call it a tax, now that its firmly a tax- there will soon be a way to punish ppl for not paying the fine ERRR tax.

    Even w/o the supreme court ruling necessitating changes- it was pretty obvious large chunks of this bill were incomplete. How everything is stitched back together will answer all the questions- there really are no concrete answers for most questions till then.

  30. Post #70
    Gold Member
    Venezuelan's Avatar
    September 2011
    12,357 Posts
    If you can't afford health insurance, then the government subsidises it for you. If you can't afford the fine, you don't have to pay it. Government also can't pursue legal means to force someone to pay it (it's essentially a toothless fine. Not sure what the point of it even is, since they can't punish you for not paying it)

    I made a post about this in a thread about this a while ago, but can't remember when or where exactly :/
    And i'll be buggered if i'm going to read the whole damn bill again to find the clause. Wikipedia has a fairly decent summary of each provision and when it enters into effect, and it'll probably have a link somewhere to the actual text of the bill itself.
    When do they start subsidizing? I know quite a few people who can't afford health insurance.

  31. Post #71
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  32. Post #72

  33. Post #73
    Gold Member
    TestECull's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,027 Posts
    Good. Now that we know we actually can pass this shit despite GOP cockblocking let's get a proper nationalized healthcare system in place. I want to be able to walk into a doctor's office for preventative care, not because I'll die if I don't.
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  34. Post #74
    Gold Member
    Disotrtion's Avatar
    February 2012
    2,382 Posts
    Justice Roberts wanted to go out with a bang, huh.

  35. Post #75
    NeonpieDFTBA's Avatar
    January 2012
    984 Posts
    Surely insurance is the same as Universal Healthcare anyway. You say you don't want to pay for other people's healthcare but with insurance that is exactly what you do, except the insurance company also makes you pay a little more for their profits, whereas all the money with Universal Healthcare gets spent on Healthcare related things.

    There was a source in MD a while ago which also showed that the Americans spent about twice as much per capita as people in the UK, despite the fact that this healthcare was worse and did not cover everyone. So in an attempt to avoid tax you have ended up with a more expensive yet worse healthcare system.



  36. Post #76
    Oh no, what have I done!
    milkandcooki's Avatar
    November 2007
    22,044 Posts
    Give me liberty or give me my right to die in my living room at age 36 because I literally cannot afford to live.

  37. Post #77
    Chicken_Chaser's Avatar
    June 2010
    4,372 Posts
    Give me liberty or give me my right to die in my living room at age 36 because I literally cannot afford to live.
    that is liberty fool ur a welfare queen no redemption for you choices or socioeconomic upbringing

  38. Post #78
    lawl's Avatar
    July 2010
    156 Posts
    Surely insurance is the same as Universal Healthcare anyway. You say you don't want to pay for other people's healthcare but with insurance that is exactly what you do, except the insurance company also makes you pay a little more for their profits, whereas all the money with Universal Healthcare gets spent on Healthcare related things.

    There was a source in MD a while ago which also showed that the Americans spent about twice as much per capita as people in the UK, despite the fact that this healthcare was worse and did not cover everyone. So in an attempt to avoid tax you have ended up with a more expensive yet worse healthcare system.


    With real insurance people with poor lifestyle choices and pre existing conditions have to pay a higher premium or not get approved at all because its not insurance if they're guaranteed to have a health problem with 100% certainty . Under this law they get to pay the same rate, so companies will just raise the rate for everyone to cover their losses. It amounts to an overall subsidy from the healthy to the unhealthy

  39. Post #79
    crazyjames's Avatar
    June 2009
    439 Posts
    We are all going to be forced to get RFID chips now. Goodbye freedom.
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  40. Post #80
    Gold Member
    Led Zeppelin's Avatar
    February 2007
    1,034 Posts
    I don't understand all the fuss over whether or not this is considered a tax. I'm all for tax increases if they're for the betterment of social programs and social welfare (in my own opinion, of course).
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