To honor the request of the OP of the "fake science" thread I have moved this discussion to its own thread. Here are the highlights of what we've already discussed.
I left off yesterday promising I would provide evidence. Before getting started, I would like to concede that Intelligent Design is NOT something that can be proven using the scientific method. It is NOT testable nor repeatable, cannot produce empirical evidence and so in the end isn't science. Which is the actual topic of this thread.
Having said that I also would like to remind that if God could be proven to exist scientifically, that would totally remove the necessity of faith, which is one of the cornerstones of Christianity.
Having no empirical proof for God is not the same as having NO evidence.
Love, asthetic value, sanctity of life, equality of mankind, rational intelligibility/universal consistency of the universe, etc. etc. cannot be empirically proven either, yet most, if not all of these are universally accepted as being valid/true.
I will provide several examples of what, at least to me, is compelling evidence that suggests a high probability for the accuracy of the Bible, which by its very nature would strongly suggest the existence of God:
Fulfilled prophecy - There are literally hundreds of prophecies found in the Bible which have already been fulfilled. Not prophecies with Nostradamus-like vagueness which could be "fulfilled" by any number of occurences/events but very detailed prophecies.
Scientific knowledge that was not possibly known by the authors - Job and Isaiah states the Earth is a circle, which seems to be more consistent with a round earth than a flat earth. Psalms mentions the "paths of the sea" (which we now know are currents), Different parts of The Hydrological cycle are described in different chapters, that if looked at as a whole is a fairly complete description of the cycle we know today. Fountains in the sea, thought preposterous for thousands of years were indeed discovered back in the laste 70s, etc. etc.
Many thousands of examples of historical corroboration - There is not one verifiable historical claim in the Bible that has been found to be innacurate.
Philosophical consistency - It is perfectly consistent with known & accepted philosophical laws.
A consistant and seemless narrative that spans 1500+ years and 40+ authors Not only is this remarkable on its own, but these authors had no sufficient motivation to continue building upon a lie propogated by others, who they (in most cases) didn't know.
MaGGiFiXXX good to meet you. You present some well written objections and I thank you for the thoughtfulness shown in your post. I will try to answer them as best I can.
Even conservative estimates date Isaiah to 700BC. Basically a half a milennia before it was "proven" by the Greeks or whoever.
"Vaguely written down" is inaccurate imo. Perhaps there are issues when we look at the many translations and differing interpretations, but "vaguely written down" doesn't fit if I understand the correct meaning of that phrase.
Modern slavery was a system where the wealthy initiated the purchase and therefore the motivation of slavery was basically the wealthy exploiting the poor. In this system people were captured by force and sold by another.
In the OT, that wasn't the case. In most instances the slavery was initiated by the underprivileged. They were poor and starving, in debt over their head or whatever, and offered themselves as slaves to a more wealthy person. While there were many cases of parents selling their children to reduce a burden of debt, I don't think that is comparable to what was going on in Africa with the slave trade. The biggest difference being it was done voluntarily. The parents that had to use this as a last rresort, were unable to care for their children and this was a way to A) ensure the care of their child for the next few years, and B) alleviate their own dire financial situation with a lump sum of cash.
Additionally, in the large majority of these cases, the slave was not beaten and worked to death, but rather simply did domestic work for their owner and lived under the same roof. It was mandatory that they must be released during Jubilee (so no more than 7 years). They had some legal rights, were allowed to borrow money, partake in business, as well as buy their freedom. In still other cases people were sentenced to slavery for theft. They did not have jails, and this was considered a fair way for the thief to repay his victim.
In summary, just because God gave rules on how to conduct this business, doesn't mean he approved of or liked it. In fact when looking at the definition of slavery that we are most familiar with God had this to say:
Exodus 21:16 posted:
WRT stoning unruly children. This was a very rare thing that had many safegaurds in place. First and foremost BOTH parents had to agree with this decision. So you are talking about one REALLY bad person that gets the vote from both parents. Secondly to protect against two dirtbag parents, even if they had agreed to stone the child, they STILL had to bring the case in front of an elder.
Many are going to read this and still be uncomfortable with the idea. I accept that. But the idea was to purge the community of this immoral and terrible person. It is the lesser of two evils. Stone him now, or let him keep doing vile & evil things that affect the community at large.
I hope this gives a bit more perspective to some of the issues you have raised. I realize we probably will not agree on everything, but again I welcome any sincere inquiries as well as criticism (which I'm sure is far more likely. lol)
Good morning GoDong-DK.
Good to meet another poster with intelligent and well thought out rebuttals.
Point 1) I already conceded that I didn't believe ID had any verifiable scientific evidence, and offered to begin a new thread as that is the bottom line for the OPs question. End of discussion.
However, a court of law uses evidence that isn't "scientific", and while, imo, ID shouldn't be considered science, it should not be dismissed as having "no evidence" without serious consideration of the facts that I've listed.
2) So feeling can be scientifically "proven"? I know there have been some brain wave type tests that seems to verify what you are saying concerning the electric signals, and how certain emotions can actually be measured by an increase or decrease of certain chemicals in the brain and so forth. While the feelings issue may fall under scientifically verifiable, I don't think that can answer for the non emotional subjects listed. Sanctity of life, equality of all mankind and the rational intelligibility/universal consistency assumption.
3) Fulfilled Prophecy - I would point to the hundreds of Messianic prophecies concerning Jesus of Nazareth. It is ridiculous to think that someone came along and fulfilled all of these and WAS NOT the Messiah.
A) Zechariah 11:12-13 - And I said to them, If it seems just and right to you, give me my wages; but if not, withhold them. So they weighed out for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said to me, Cast it to the potter [as if He said, To the dogs!]—the munificently [miserable] sum at which I [and My shepherd] am priced by them! And I [Zechariah] took the thirty pieces of silver and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.
In Zechariah 11:4-17, the prophet speaks of a payment involving 30 pieces of silver and of a good shepherd whose service is brought to an end. This foreshadows an event that happened to Jesus about 500 years later. As explained in Matthew 26:15, Judas was paid 30 silver coins for his betrayal of Jesus. Judas told the Romans when and where they could arrest Jesus without being surrounded by a large crowd of Jesus' followers. As explained in Matthew 27:5-7, Judas later tossed the money into the Temple (the house of the Lord) and the money was used to buy a potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.
B) Isaiah 50:6 - I gave My back to the smiters and My cheeks to those who plucked off the hair; I hid not My face from shame and spitting.
In Isaiah 50:6, the prophet writes about a servant of God who endures abuse at the hands of sinful people. This servant offers his back to those who beat him, his face to those who rip out his beard, and himself to those who mock and taunt him. Christians historically have acknowledged this Old Testament prophecy as being fulfilled by Jesus Christ, who lived about 700 years after Isaiah. Jesus, as explained in the New Testament, was beaten, mocked and taunted shortly before his crucifixion by the Romans. In Matthew 26:67 (NIV translation), for example, it says: Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"
C) Isaiah 53:9 - And they assigned Him a grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in His death, although He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.
In Isaiah 53:9, the prophet Isaiah wrote about a sinless servant being put to death with the wicked and buried with the rich. About 700 years after this was written, Jesus was put to death along with two criminals and was buried in a tomb owned by a wealthy man, as explained in the New Testament. The New Testament also says that Jesus was resurrected three days later and ascended into Heaven.
D) Psalm 69:21 - They gave me also gall [poisonous and bitter] for my food, and in my thirst they gave me vinegar (a soured wine) to drink.
During Jesus' time hanging on the cross, Matthew writes:"They offered Him wine mingled with gall to drink; but when He tasted it, He refused to drink it." (Matthew 27:34).
E) Isaiah 40:1-5,9 - Comfort, comfort My people, says your God. Speak tenderly to the heart of Jerusalem, and cry to her that her time of service and her warfare are ended, that [her punishment is accepted and] her iniquity is pardoned, that she has received [punishment] from the Lord’s hand double for all her sins. A voice of one who cries: Prepare in the wilderness the way of the Lord [clear away the obstacles]; make straight and smooth in the desert a highway for our God! Every valley shall be lifted and filled up, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the crooked and uneven shall be made straight and level, and the rough places a plain. And the glory (majesty and splendor) of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.
In Isaiah 40:3, the prophet writes about a person in the desert who prepares the way for the Lord. This prophecy foreshadowed the life of John the Baptist, who played an important role in preparing the groundwork for the ministry of Jesus Christ. Jesus was born shortly after John the Baptist about 2000 years ago. The book of Matthew records many events of the life of Jesus and of John the Baptist. In Matthew 3:1-2, it says: "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea, and saying, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."
F) Zechariah 9:9 -Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O Daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King comes to you; He is [uncompromisingly] just and having salvation [triumphant and victorious], patient, meek, lowly, and riding on a donkey, upon a colt, the foal of a donkey.
In Zechariah 9:9, the prophet speaks of a future king presenting himself to Jerusalem while riding on a humble donkey. This foreshadowed something that happened about 500 years later. As explained in Luke 19:35-37, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey and presented himself as the Messiah, the King.
Alfred Edersheim, a Christian Jew who lived during the 1800s, studied ancient Rabbinical writings, and said that Zechariah 9:9 was often interpreted as being about a Messiah. In his book, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Edersheim wrote: "The Messianic application of this verse in all its parts has already been repeatedly indicated. We may here add that there are many traditions about this donkey on which the Messiah is to ride; and so firm was the belief in it, that, according to the Talmud, 'if anyone saw a donkey in his dreams, he will see salvation' (Ber 56 b)."
The name "Jesus," means "salvation" in Hebrew.
These are some of the most plainly written and were obviously fulfilled by Jesus of Nazareth.
4a) Scientific knowledge - The translation for the Hebrew word (חוג—chuwg) can be translated circle, round or sphere. There was absolutely no specific word for "sphere" in ancient Hebrew, so they would have had to use a word which conveys the idea as best they could. I am unaware of any reference to the Earth being any of the three prior to the OT.
4b) Scientific knowledge - Unlikely, but for the sake of argument let's assume sailors were aware of currents in 1000 BC. David was no sailor, and it is very unlikely that he would be aware of this through 1st hand information, which again is unlikely that anyone else even had 1st hand knowledge of such a phenomenon.
4c) Scientific knowledge - "Hydrologic Cycle":
Job 26:8 - He holds the waters bound in His clouds [which otherwise would spill on earth all at once], and the cloud is not rent under them.
Job 36:27-28 - For He draws up the drops of water, which distil as rain from His vapor, Which the skies pour down and drop abundantly upon [the multitudes of] mankind.
Ecclesiastes 1:6-7 - The wind goes to the south and circles about to the north; it circles and circles about continually, and on its circuit the wind returns again. All the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea is not full. To the place from which the rivers come, to there and from there they return again.
Job 28:25-26 - When He gave to the wind weight or pressure and allotted the waters by measure,
When He made a decree for the rain and a way for the lightning of the thunder.
Lightning and thunder in most ancient religions were thought to be cast down from angry gods. The Bible asserts no such superstition, but rather states rather plainly that there were rules and laws governing these phenomenons.
5) Historical corroboration - I didn't claim that everything had been pinpointed precisely. What I said was there has been no verifiable historical claim that has been found to be innacurate. DId the Bible claim a date and it isn't accurate? No. Are you saying that the "general timeframe" is somehow impossible due to some facts? I just am not sure I understand the objection made here.
6) Philosophical consistency - I may not have used the correct terminology. Is there such a thing as "Philosophical Law"? What I am trying to convey is ideas such as:
Two contradictory claims to absolute truth cannot both be true, cause and effect, epistemology, etc.,etc.
7) There were entire classes of Ancient Hebrews whose sole purpose was keeping the oral tradition of the Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible) alive and accurate. At some point these oral traditions were written down. The timeframe is between 1446 BC and 1406 BC, with the remaining books of the OT composed between 1400 BC to 400 BC.
I hope this has satisfactorily answered the questions you have posed and will do my best to clarify those that are still a source of contention.
I will say that all of the apostles knew what Matthew wrote and none ever challenged this claim. In addition to the apostles (who, one could argue, were all in kahoots) the Sanhedrin were also present and they would certainly have leapt at the chance to discredit the claims of these apostles. Luke also records in Acts how the Potter's field was bought with the money, which was also mentioned in that prophecy I quoted. Again I suppose if they all were in kahoots, the point you raise still holds true.
I guess the strongest (IMO) evidence against the whole "They all propogated the same lie" theory, at least concerning the apostles, would be the fact that none of them recanted, even though most suffered horrible deaths for not doing so.
Original Twelve picked by Jesus:
Peter, crucified upside-down in Rome c. AD 64.
James, son of Zebedee was beheaded in AD 44, first of the Twelve to die (since the addition of Matthias)
John, son of Zebedee, no biblical record of death, he is believed to have died of natural causes due to old age. Members of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that John was immortalized and he will live to see the Second Coming of Christ.
Andrew, Peter's brother, was crucified upon a diagonal or X-shaped cross.
Philip was crucified in AD 54.
Bartholomew (also known as Nathaniel) was flayed alive (skinned) and then beheaded; some sources locate his death at Derbend on the Caspian Sea.
Matthew killed by an axe in AD 60.
Thomas was killed by a spear in Mylapore, Madras, India in AD 72.
James, son of Alphaeus, stoned at age 90 then clubbed to death.
Jude was crucified.
Simon the Zealot was crucified in AD 74.
Not one said "Alright, alright, we were just kidding"?
Surely ONE of these men would have fessed up and prevented his own gruesome death, as THEY would have known whether or not they had indeed perpetrated a lie.
Psalm 22:18 - They part my clothing among them and cast lots for my raiment (a long, shirtlike garment, a seamless undertunic).
In Matthew 27:35 - And when they had crucified Him, they divided and distributed His garments [among them] by casting lots.
This is something Jesus could not have "faked" He wasn't the one casting lots. Again I suppose you could stick to the "they made it all up" theory, but otherwise, it is pretty strong evidence imo.
An honest critic is rare to come across, especially on an internet forum, and I once again thank you for being a person of integrity.
The raising of Lazarus from the dead, the feeding of the 5000, the walking on the water, healing of the blind/sick, calming of the storm, the Israeli's defeat of the Philistines.
What possible scientific evidence COULD there POSSIBLY be for any of these?
The best I can offer concerning the Red Sea would be from this site.
It shows somewhat compelling evidence, but unfortunately the Egyptian government refuses to allow further exploration and study.
Again a pleasure conversing with you on the matter.