1. Post #1
    sonerin's Avatar
    May 2008
    1,534 Posts
    As you all know, over 70 million people died under the Soviet command and their symbol. Millions of civilians were murdered by them. Holodomor massacre, Katyn massacre, raping & murdering of German civilians in 1945, et cetera. Nazism is shunned upon for the holocaust, but why is it okay to whip the hammer and sickle flag out and wave it around? Even in the media, I've seen a lot of Soviet related things that symphatized them and their actions.

    Hypocrisy or what?

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  2. Post #2
    shackleford's Avatar
    July 2012
    231 Posts
    Maybe some people just wave it around to express their ideology/ past country. Same thing with Neo Nazis.
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  3. Post #3
    sonerin's Avatar
    May 2008
    1,534 Posts
    Maybe some people just wave it around to express their ideology. Same thing with Neo Nazis.
    But a Neo Nazi would be arrested for Nazism if he did what he did in an European country, but a Soviet symphatizer wouldn't.
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  4. Post #4
    Gold Member
    wraithcat's Avatar
    December 2007
    12,617 Posts
    As you all know, over 70 million people died under the Soviet command and their symbol. Millions of civilians were murdered by them. Holodomor massacre, Katyn massacre, raping & murdering of German civilians in 1945, et cetera. Nazism is shunned upon for the holocaust, but why is it okay to whip the hammer and sickle flag out and wave it around? Even in the media, I've seen a lot of Soviet related things that symphatized them and their actions.

    Hypocrisy or what?
    Because most western nations never felt the direct impact of communism as opposed to the direct impact of nazism.
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  5. Post #5
    shackleford's Avatar
    July 2012
    231 Posts
    But a Neo Nazi would be arrested for Nazism if he did what he did in an European country, but a Soviet symphatizer wouldn't.
    Yeah only in some European countries. But places like USA, it is allowed, and does not discriminate people's beliefs in their ideologies. However Nazism is connected to anti-semitism, rascism and racial superiority to name a few, while communism is not.
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  6. Post #6
    sonerin's Avatar
    May 2008
    1,534 Posts
    Yeah only in some European countries. But places like USA, it is allowed, and does not discriminate people's beliefs in their ideologies. However Nazism is connected to anti-semitism, rascism and racial superiority to name a few, while communism is not.
    Communism might not be directed to hatred of a group, but let's say that I get offended when I see anything Soviet-related (I'm an Ukrainian victim of the Holodomor massacre), so why wouldn't they ban Soviet related things? They offend a lot of people after all, since they committed genocides against civilians.
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  7. Post #7
    shackleford's Avatar
    July 2012
    231 Posts
    Communism might not be directed to hatred of a group, but let's say that I get offended when I see anything Soviet-related (I'm an Ukrainian victim of the Holodomor massacre), so why wouldn't they ban Soviet related things? They offend a lot of people after all, since they committed genocides against civilians.
    Anything can be considered hate speech. Like showing a USA flag might be offensive to me because of the Jim Crow Laws and lynching of black people. Does that mean we should ban USA related things? Even if you say the word 'water' it may be offensive to me because I believe in a religion that does not tolerate people saying water. Does that mean we should ban the word water? You really shouldn't ban stuff like that, but ban actions such as genocide like what you mentioned (which is already in place). If you ban stuff like that it would not be a free speech society.
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  8. Post #8
    sonerin's Avatar
    May 2008
    1,534 Posts
    Anything can be considered hate speech. Like showing a USA flag might be offensive to me because of the Jim Crow Laws and lynching of black people. Does that mean we should ban USA related things? Even if you say the word 'water' it may be offensive to me because I believe in a religion that does not tolerate people saying water. Does that mean we should ban the word water? You really shouldn't ban stuff like that, but ban actions such as genocide like what you mentioned (which is already in place). If you ban stuff like that it would not be a free speech society.
    I know, right? And that's my point. Banning everything people find offensive would be a mess. But if they're only going to ban specific offensive things, then don't even bother. You either ban all (Nazism, Soviet related things, Americanism, etc.) "offensive" things or don't ban all of them.

    Banning just Nazism and leaving other offensive beliefs is too fucking dumb.
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  9. Post #9
    shackleford's Avatar
    July 2012
    231 Posts
    I know, right? And that's my point. Banning everything people find offensive would be a mess. But if they're only going to ban specific offensive things, then don't even bother. You either ban all (Nazism, Soviet related things, Americanism, etc.) "offensive" things or don't ban all of them.

    Banning just Nazism and leaving other offensive beliefs is too fucking dumb.
    Yeah agreed.
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  10. Post #10
    Marbalo's Avatar
    June 2011
    2,310 Posts
    I want to know where you pulled "70 million people" from because that's complete and utter nonsense.
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  11. Post #11
    Gold Member
    JustGman's Avatar
    December 2005
    6,053 Posts
    Because 12 year olds think it's edgy and cool to like them.
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  12. Post #12
    sonerin's Avatar
    May 2008
    1,534 Posts
    I want to know where you pulled "70 million people" from because that's complete and utter nonsense.
    Katyn, Holodomor, other massacres. It's also confirmed that Russia is still hiding the real death tolls of massacres and genocides committed by the Soviet Union. Search up and you'll see.
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  13. Post #13
    Marbalo's Avatar
    June 2011
    2,310 Posts
    Katyn, Holodomor, other massacres. It's also confirmed that Russia is still hiding the real death tolls of massacres and genocides committed by the Soviet Union. Search up and you'll see.
    The combined total of all the massacres of the Soviet Union, including Holodomor (which is actually heavily debated by historians as to whether or not it was directly caused by Soviet authorities) reaches a total of around 6 - 8 million dead civilians.

    70 million people is not only a ridiculously impossible number, it's also statistically and economically improbable. I have absolutely no idea where you even figured 70 million people were somehow killed in the Soviet Union when the total number of dead civilians after WW2 was 15 million, which means the SU would have lost 85 million people in around 40 years.

    Yeah, Im sure the country managed to remain a superpower for 60 years and go toe-to-toe with the West with only 10~ million people. Sounds logical.
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  14. Post #14
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2005
    15,081 Posts
    I guess because Communism isn't supposed to murder millions of people. While Nazism is.

    Well if you look at it horrifically simplistic.
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  15. Post #15
    People tend to romanticize the past.
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  16. Post #16
    sonerin's Avatar
    May 2008
    1,534 Posts
    The combined total of all the massacres of the Soviet Union, including Holodomor (which is actually heavily debated by historians as to whether or not it was directly caused by Soviet authorities) reaches a total of around 6 - 8 million dead civilians.

    70 million people is not only a ridiculously impossible number, it's also statistically and economically improbable. I have absolutely no idea where you even figured 70 million people were somehow killed in the Soviet Union when the total number of dead civilians after WW2 was 15 million, which means the SU would have lost 85 million people in around 40 years.

    Yeah, Im sure the country managed to remain a superpower for 60 years and go toe-to-toe with the West with only 10~ million people. Sounds logical.
    Like I said, Soviet Union is hiding the real death tolls.

    I guess because Communism isn't supposed to murder millions of people. While Nazism is.


    Well if you look at it horrifically simplistic.
    It's not.
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  17. Post #17
    Marbalo's Avatar
    June 2011
    2,310 Posts
    Like I said, Soviet Union is hiding the real death tolls.
    It doesn't matter what they're "hiding". (The fact you even think they can somehow successfully hide the death of 70 million people is hilarious in itself. )

    The fact is the Soviet Union could not sustain such massive economic growth, let alone a flourishing culture with a massive society to back it up if the government actually killed 70 million fucking people. It cant happen, it didn't happen and you're just buying into McCarthyist bullshit.
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  18. Post #18
    Gold Member
    BCell's Avatar
    November 2006
    6,433 Posts
    OP is thinking about Stalinism. It's Joseph Stalin's fault that communism looks evil. If it weren't for Stalin's meddling of Russian economic affair and his iron fist regime, Communism might have been view as a community socialism instead of a semi-fascist look alike.
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  19. Post #19
    Marbalo's Avatar
    June 2011
    2,310 Posts
    It's not.
    Nazism advocates war, both culture war and traditional war.

    Communism advocates cooperation and unity regardless of race, sex or social standing.
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  20. Post #20
    Gold Member
    BCell's Avatar
    November 2006
    6,433 Posts
    It's not Russia and China's fault. Blame it on Stalin and Mao Zedong. Also Pol Pot of Cambodia is also included. These guys ruins the true name of Communism. I think Marxism is a better
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  21. Post #21
    Gold Member
    POLOPOZOZO's Avatar
    May 2006
    14,850 Posts
    People tend to romanticize the past.
    Yeah just think about all the people in the South who still believe in the Confederacy.

    Personally I think it's really impressive that they managed to keep the Church's tentacles away for 70 years.
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  22. Post #22
    You do know that after Stalin, the Soviet Union flourished right? It wasn't as bad as it was shown in history textbooks. It was a place rich in culture and etc.
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  23. Post #23
    Gold Member
    wraithcat's Avatar
    December 2007
    12,617 Posts
    You do know that after Stalin, the Soviet Union flourished right? It wasn't as bad as it was shown in history textbooks. It was a place rich in culture and etc.
    commuinist culture is genereally laughde in post commut nations. It eas so called poitically doctrined. IT wasdnot living culture. IT was ordained cylture and hillariously ad.
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  24. Post #24
    Gold Member
    elowin's Avatar
    December 2009
    7,572 Posts
    Often it's used to represent communism in general, and not just the Soviet Union.
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  25. Post #25
    Gold Member
    Squeaken's Avatar
    January 2007
    3,710 Posts
    People like the Soviets cause they're kitsch nowadays.
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  26. Post #26
    Dennab
    March 2012
    867 Posts
    For russians, it's because Stalin made russia great. For non-russians, it's not Okay. I'm a communist and any marxist worth his equally distributed salt denounces the soviet union. the people who wear ussr shirts or own soviet things in a non-ironic way are called "tankies" by us in the leftist community.
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  27. Post #27
    Gold Member
    carcarcargo's Avatar
    October 2007
    14,786 Posts
    It's a bit unfair to blame all those deaths on the soviets when it was only Stalin, who future soviet leaders didn't like and expressed so.

    Edited:

    Yeah just think about all the people in the South who still believe in the Confederacy.

    Personally I think it's really impressive that they managed to keep the Church's tentacles away for 70 years.
    Well when you send anyone you dislike to the gulags it's not hard to keep people you dislike away.
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  28. Post #28
    VENEZOLANO
    Big Bang's Avatar
    August 2006
    3,407 Posts
    Because the Soviet Union is something far bigger than just the Stalinist regime? True, that was probably the most popular part of it, but the Soviet Union outlasted Stalin by decades. Stalin is the one to blame for most genocidal acts committed on the Soviet Union's behalf. True, the ruthless regime remained for years to come, but never committed atrocities to the scale of Stalin's rule.

    The Soviet Union and the hammer and sickle are symbols of the Workers party and communism, which has no direct violent connotations, as opposed to the Nazi Eagle and the swastika, which are symbols of Nazism, and by extension racial supremacy. One of the core tenets of Nazism is the belief that the German people are the master race, and that sequential extermination of other "inferior" races is perfectly acceptable as they are taking space and resources usable by the "perfect" Germans. Nazism is directly tied to racism, while communism simply doesn't have a direct, or as direct, link to violence.
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  29. Post #29
    Gold Member
    carcarcargo's Avatar
    October 2007
    14,786 Posts
    Like I said, Soviet Union is hiding the real death tolls.


    Wow really? Do you have any evidence to back this idea up?
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  30. Post #30
    Gold Member

    February 2006
    2,985 Posts
    Oh look, a nationalist liar.

    As you all know, over 70 million people died under the Soviet command and their symbol.
    False. This isn't even worthy of a response because of how ridiculous it is. Do you just pull numbers out of your ass without any regard to scale or the size of the soviet population?

    Millions of civilians were murdered by them.
    Support this.

    Holodomor massacre
    That ukrainian nationalist myth? No serious historian, except for cold war sensationalists like robert conquest, give a fuck about it.

    Katyn massacre
    This is debated to hell and back whose at fault because of the suspicious circumstances and timing of it, but to be honest I don't have any sympathy for polish officers who served a fascist government.

    So, big fucking deal. You could make a better argument for banning the british flag because the empire introduced the first 'concentration camps' in south africa. Obviously this is evidence for communists to prove liberals and fascists are the same

    raping & murdering of German civilians in 1945
    There were rapes, and the offenders were shot by their officers, but murders? No, at least not on any similar scale. I don't know why this would even be a reason to 'disown' the USSR or ban the flag.

    This isn't to mention the endless amount of nazi crimes committed against soviet civilians during their invasion.

    Nazism is shunned upon for the holocaust, but why is it okay to whip the hammer and sickle flag out and wave it around?
    Because it's a symbol of working class struggle and resistance against imperialism, unlike the swastika which was a symbol of irredento and imperialist war against rival empires, and a healthy amount of national chauvinism. It's a populist symbol, unlike the swastika which was the symbol of unabashed reaction.

    Liberals never had to 'appease' communists like they did hitler, they never entered a 'detente' with hitler and otherwise never had a give and take relationship with fascists. A fascist would never participate in the UN and 'compromise' with other nations like the USSR did. In fact, you could make the case the USSR was far less expansionist than the fascists were.

    Also, in places like ukraine and russia, even the far right idolizes it.

    Even in the media, I've seen a lot of Soviet related things that symphatized them and their actions.
    That's because most former soviet republics lost a lot after the collapse, and it's pretty much a necessity to admit something was lost to be considered credible. This is true for the far right everywhere except a few hysterical ukrainian & baltic nationalists.

    Otherwise, liberals in ukraine & russia hate the USSR and are eager to propagate myths so they can inch closer to the west.

    Hypocrisy or what?
    Apples and oranges.

    I'm an Ukrainian victim of the Holodomor massacre
    LOL. no you're not.
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  31. Post #31
    Kefirman's Avatar
    March 2010
    1,025 Posts
    Maybe because it was Hitler who started the war? Can you show something similliar to Leningrad's blockade done by Soviets?

    It is because USSR played major role in defeating Nazi Germany.
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  32. Post #32
    Gold Member
    POLOPOZOZO's Avatar
    May 2006
    14,850 Posts
    Well when you send anyone you dislike to the gulags it's not hard to keep people you dislike away.
    They managed to at least make their society secular. Now that it's all over they simply crawled back into power, not to mention that thanks to the brain drain they don't have many people getting in the way.
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  33. Post #33
    Gold Member
    Sgt Doom's Avatar
    March 2005
    19,828 Posts
    commuinist culture is genereally laughde in post commut nations. It eas so called poitically doctrined. IT wasdnot living culture. IT was ordained cylture and hillariously ad.
    I have never seen someone with a ban log half-full of PUIs before.
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  34. Post #34
    Gold Member
    Lonestriper's Avatar
    September 2008
    5,492 Posts
    The Soviet Union, while a laughable attempt, is the original successful socialist revolutionary state. It's not surprising people feel solidarity with them, even though the Soviet Union turned out to be as awful as any other super power.
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  35. Post #35
    I hate US Marines
    Itsjustguy's Avatar
    July 2009
    4,144 Posts
    The soviet union ( and i right it with lower capitals because it isn't a real country anymore ) is a laughable attempt at "communism" with faulty leaders, corruption, stupidity and carelessness.
    The only good thing about communism was that there were no taxes for housing, heat and water.The soviet union is just a failure of management, totalitarianism and authoritarianism.
    Having feelings that the soviet union was a paradise is as laughable as saying that we will all use golden toilets, live in massive mansions and have amazing food forever because people will work together.
    My grand-grandpartens, grandparents, parents have lived in communist times and i can only see there bitter hate of the regime.Not only because we went from democracy to dictatorship, but because we were occupied by red scum.
    The soviet union is just a example of a countries that tries to look democratic while occupying other nations, forcing there regime and ideology on others and being useless.
    I'd say the soviet union has caused massive number and i support about the number 40 million people killed.
    Reason - artificial starvation, partisan executions, mass deportation to Siberia, war time executions and killings of the red army soldiers, faulty army tactics that caused massive deaths, concentration camps by the soviet union, stalin's paranoid killings, soviet union expansionism, killing protesters, Latvian army officer mass executions at Litene, killings of revolutionaries and probably more hidden files that reveal killings.
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  36. Post #36
    Marbalo's Avatar
    June 2011
    2,310 Posts
    The soviet union ( and i right it with lower capitals because it isn't a real country anymore ) is a laughable attempt at "communism" with faulty leaders, corruption, stupidity and carelessness.
    The only good thing about communism was that there were no taxes for housing, heat and water.The soviet union is just a failure of management, totalitarianism and authoritarianism.
    Having feelings that the soviet union was a paradise is as laughable as saying that we will all use golden toilets, live in massive mansions and have amazing food forever because people will work together.
    My grand-grandpartens, grandparents, parents have lived in communist times and i can only see there bitter hate of the regime.Not only because we went from democracy to dictatorship, but because we were occupied by red scum.
    The soviet union is just a example of a countries that tries to look democratic while occupying other nations, forcing there regime and ideology on others and being useless.
    I'd say the soviet union has caused massive number and i support about the number 40 million people killed.
    Reason - artificial starvation, partisan executions, mass deportation to Siberia, war time executions and killings of the red army soldiers, faulty army tactics that caused massive deaths, concentration camps by the soviet union, stalin's paranoid killings, soviet union expansionism, killing protesters, Latvian army officer mass executions at Litene, killings of revolutionaries and probably more hidden files that reveal killings.
    You couldnt be more biased (and flat out wrong) if you tried. Refer to previous posts in this thread to see why as I dont feel like regurgitating the same crap everytime.
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  37. Post #37
    Actually a cool guy
    David29's Avatar
    June 2005
    2,964 Posts
    Really, it's only because the USSR was on the winning side of the war. The saying "my enemy's enemy is my friend could be any more true when comes to the relationship between the Allies and the Soviets during WWII.

    I wouldn't say that the USSR itself was evil, more that it was Stalin who was. Unlike the Communists, the National Socialist ideology had ingrained into it the idea of race supremecy and whatnot. By comparison, Communism as it was set out by Lennin was a lot more tolerant and peaceful (it was just skewed somewhat by Stalin).
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  38. Post #38
    Gold Member
    [Seed Eater]'s Avatar
    July 2011
    5,563 Posts
    Like I said, Soviet Union is hiding the real death tolls.
    Bollocks. We have good figures and it isn't anywhere near 70 million. The figure you're using is an exaggeration of an exaggeration. The HIGHEST figure that is even considered for the USSR's death toll is 20 million, and that comes from a hugely biased and several-times-discredited source, the Black Book of Communism by Stéphane Courtois. The Black Book's estimate of Mao's 65 million is likely what you're thinking of, but even that is very high and taking into account such things as government inefficiencies leading to starvation and overwork, which were not intentional deaths but rather the effects of mass industrialization and forced collectivization under inefficient and corrupt means. While we can and probably should blame these deaths on the leadership, this isn't unexpected. The Western democracies' working class had enormous death rates due to the effects of the industrial revolution until the late 1880s, but we aren't as concerned with them because they're a lesser amount over a far larger range. The nonindustrial eastern nations didn't have the ability to industrialize through natural means over a natural period, but rather were forced to industrialize under extreme pressure in time spans of only a decade- so of course they had huge losses. This is not the problem of communism, or even the deformed statist totalitarian bullshit that was Mao's China and the post-Lenin USSR, but rather inefficient mass industrialization with no regard for human life. Whether or not you can claim these deaths as the victims of communism comes down to whether you consider the totalitarian Maoist and Stalinist states as communist and whether communism, or mass industrialization, killed them.

    I hate those regimes, but I still think that your death toll is BS. The USSR wouldn't try to hide the real death tolls for long and Russia has been open about it- for the same reason: both the post-Stalin and post-Soviet Russia wished to discredit Stalin.
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  39. Post #39
    Support this.
    uh yeah i get that the 70 million figure was inflated but there's no denying that the soviets killed millions of their own people

    Edited:

    also OP, it isn't that the soviets are getting a free pass in their genocide, it's that everyone apart from the nazis gets a free pass on their genocide, relatively speaking. I mean the catholic church has committed far more numerous atrocities (including genocide) over its long existence than the nazis could dream of, and criticism of them is limited to standup comedy and atheist blogs

    hardly anyone in the west cares about holodomor, the irish potato famine, or the genocide of american natives. I mean people know about them but they don't provoke the visceral "ick" reaction that the mention of gaschambers does
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  40. Post #40
    Gold Member
    Zally13's Avatar
    July 2008
    4,975 Posts
    Bollocks. We have good figures and it isn't anywhere near 70 million. The figure you're using is an exaggeration of an exaggeration. The HIGHEST figure that is even considered for the USSR's death toll is 20 million, and that comes from a hugely biased and several-times-discredited source, the Black Book of Communism by Stéphane Courtois. The Black Book's estimate of Mao's 65 million is likely what you're thinking of, but even that is very high and taking into account such things as government inefficiencies leading to starvation and overwork, which were not intentional deaths but rather the effects of mass industrialization and forced collectivization under inefficient and corrupt means. While we can and probably should blame these deaths on the leadership, this isn't unexpected. The Western democracies' working class had enormous death rates due to the effects of the industrial revolution until the late 1880s, but we aren't as concerned with them because they're a lesser amount over a far larger range. The nonindustrial eastern nations didn't have the ability to industrialize through natural means over a natural period, but rather were forced to industrialize under extreme pressure in time spans of only a decade- so of course they had huge losses. This is not the problem of communism, or even the deformed statist totalitarian bullshit that was Mao's China and the post-Lenin USSR, but rather inefficient mass industrialization with no regard for human life. Whether or not you can claim these deaths as the victims of communism comes down to whether you consider the totalitarian Maoist and Stalinist states as communist and whether communism, or mass industrialization, killed them.

    I hate those regimes, but I still think that your death toll is BS. The USSR wouldn't try to hide the real death tolls for long and Russia has been open about it- for the same reason: both the post-Stalin and post-Soviet Russia wished to discredit Stalin.
    Personally, I think those should be added in death tolls. It was a direct result of governments attempting to do something, and despite deaths occurring, they continued.

    I still think his claim is ridiculous that the real death tolls are being hidden.
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