1. Post #121
    Gold Member
    Ybbat's Avatar
    December 2006
    960 Posts
    I'd also like to point out once again that even if this tech works perfectly it isn't going to prevent any murders or get any convictions. It won't prove the owner was at the scene of the crime on it's own, and if you can prove the owner was there then it's not even useful evidence.
    Let's say the offender's gun was proven to be at the scene of the crime and he has no alibi, and he was seen in the area, then that's enough to bring him in I would imagine. With an arrest you can prevent future murders dogmachines.
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  2. Post #122
    I highly doubt that the pin would wear down enough that the radial serial number would disappear.
    You'd be surprised how quickly a small piece of metal striking another piece of metal that causes a small explosion, can wear down. Those engravings will wear off, and they'll wear off quickly. If the Government wants to send me a new firing pin after every 10 shots, then fine. But I'm not paying for a new firing pin when I don't need one. I'm just glad I don't live in the states that are supporting this.

  3. Post #123
    I SHOULDN'T OWN A FIREARM
    GunFox's Avatar
    May 2005
    7,500 Posts
    Let's say a serial murder like Patrick Kearney, his Derringer .22 had micro stamping. He left a casing at the scene of a murder. Maybe the police could have cut down on the 21-43 murders he committed.
    I don't know about you guys, but if you use extremely hard steel and the criminal was unaware of micro stamping. Even with general use of the handgun at a firing range, I believe the stamp would last. With a regular firing pin, I don't imagine any less then occasional firing would damage the pin enough to lose this stamping.
    He wouldn't leave a case, seeing as derringers are almost universally break action. Yet another situation in which this is useless.

    Furthermore rimfire cartridges are particularly difficult to microstamp due to the nature of how rimfire bullets work. Getting consistent prints, even with a fully functional gun, is very difficult.
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  4. Post #124
    Gold Member
    Ybbat's Avatar
    December 2006
    960 Posts
    Fair, Trunk, but the radial marks are on the sides of the pin, and like a pencil when you use it, there is still a few cm's behind it with the same mark on it.

    Edited:

    He wouldn't leave a case, seeing as derringers are almost universally break action. Yet another situation in which this is useless.

    Furthermore rimfire cartridges are particularly difficult to microstamp due to the nature of how rimfire bullets work. Getting consistent prints, even with a fully functional gun, is very difficult.
    In the video they explained and showed how this would work aswell. I'm sorry that that example didn't work. I don't have extensive knowledge of every gun created.

  5. Post #125
    explodingape's Avatar
    August 2010
    565 Posts
    If because of this people just end up nabbing their spent shells, you've only made the job of tracking them down more difficult. seems to me like a net loss.

  6. Post #126
    Melonious Monk's Avatar
    March 2009
    577 Posts
    What I'm saying is if it can prevent a serial murderer from killing one more person. How much money is worth spending on that?
    What you're saying is that it's worth making an industry-wide production standard, which then has to be enforced and audited by REAL PEOPLE who are paid REAL MONEY, all while inconveniencing the millions of people who make up the firearms market, both on the producer and consumer level, all to catch, in all probability, the one statistical anomaly who will be too stupid or impatient to take their gun to the shooting range a couple times to wear the microstamp off their firing pin.

    I don't know whether to laugh at how dumb this is or cry because people who have the power to actually make this happen think this way.

  7. Post #127
    I SHOULDN'T OWN A FIREARM
    GunFox's Avatar
    May 2005
    7,500 Posts
    In the video they explained and showed how this would work aswell. I'm sorry that that example didn't work. I don't have extensive knowledge of every gun created.
    And yet you still support laws controlling them in very specific manners, even when told by people who DO understand firearms that it wouldn't work.

    Do you see the problem here?
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  8. Post #128
    DERAILER OF THREADS DESTROYER OF IDIOTS
    Emperor Scorpious II's Avatar
    February 2009
    25,243 Posts
    Fair, Trunk, but the radial marks are on the sides of the pin, and like a pencil when you use it, there is still a few cm's behind it with the same mark on it.

    Edited:

    In the video they explained and showed how this would work aswell. I'm sorry that that example didn't work. I don't have extensive knowledge of every gun created.
    Even if this somehow works, it's only in NY. So I'll go buy a gun in NJ and then bring over the state to shoot someone. Easy as pie.

    Well, maybe not NJ, their gun regulations are a nightmare. Let's say PA then.

  9. Post #129
    Gold Member
    Ybbat's Avatar
    December 2006
    960 Posts
    And yet you still support laws controlling them in very specific manners, even when told by people who DO understand firearms that it wouldn't work.

    Do you see the problem here?
    You twist my words. I understand firearms, I have a license, I've been an enthusiast, I've purchased guns, maintained them, please don't make me out to be uniformed. I just don't know one specific model of gun based on its name.
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  10. Post #130
    I SHOULDN'T OWN A FIREARM
    GunFox's Avatar
    May 2005
    7,500 Posts
    You twist my words. I understand firearms, I have a license, I've been an enthusiast, I've purchased guns, maintained them, please don't make me out to be uniformed. I just don't know one specific model of gun based on its name.
    Derringer isn't a specific model. It is a class of firearm used in the same manner as "revolver" or "automatic pistol".

    It refers to a general design of pocket pistol and is a bastardization of the name of the maker of one of the original designs, "Deringer".

  11. Post #131
    DERAILER OF THREADS DESTROYER OF IDIOTS
    Emperor Scorpious II's Avatar
    February 2009
    25,243 Posts
    Also Ybbat, what's to stop Remington from just simply moving their business out of state and into a state without this law?

    Suddenly it's a useless law on the books as no manufacturers will be making these stamps.

  12. Post #132
    Gold Member
    Ybbat's Avatar
    December 2006
    960 Posts
    Derringer isn't a specific model. It is a class of firearm used in the same manner as "revolver" or "automatic pistol".

    It refers to a general design of pocket pistol and is a bastardization of the name of the maker of one of the original designs, "Deringer".
    Well thank you for informing me. I'm more comfortable with shotguns and rifles as those are the main weapons that people own in Canada.

    Edited:

    Also Ybbat, what's to stop Remington from just simply moving their business out of state and into a state without this law?

    Suddenly it's a useless law on the books as no manufacturers will be making these stamps.
    That's the issue with the whole non uniform laws in the United States.

  13. Post #133
    Glod Menber
    Amez's Avatar
    June 2008
    6,713 Posts
    What makes any of you think that the average inner-city gangbanger is going to reload his own brass, swap out the firing pin, disassemble it enough to get at the pin to alter it, or pick up their brass after a drug shooting?

    It doesn't matter if someone methodical and skilled and knowledgeable about guns can circumvent this. They're the 0.0001% of armed felons. Whether or not it's worth the price and hassle to implement is another matter, but it's dumb to think that every street thug is going to get around it easily, and they're the ones committing most gun-related crimes.

    More importantly, tracing guns is a lot easier than you would think. At the very least it could be used to crack down on straw purchases, which are a significant supply of illegal handguns.
    Well if you're talking about inner-city gangsters then their guns won't be legal anyway, so everything you just said doesn't apply at all to anyone but to someone that bought it legally lol.
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  14. Post #134
    Gold Member
    DaCommie1's Avatar
    June 2008
    7,130 Posts
    Well thank you for informing me. I'm more comfortable with shotguns and rifles as those are the main weapons that people own in Canada.

    Edited:

    That's the issue with the whole non uniform laws in the United States.
    Oh God I hope you don't want this trash here, we're in such a shitty place with the Firearms Act now as it is because of people with the mentality "well it won't affect my guns, so why should I care?" the firearms act is a pile of unconstitutional garbage that has sent thousands of innocent people to prison for paper crimes such as this bullshit "safe storage" crap and the damn registry. Gun owners need to stand together against this kind of crap because it WON'T save a single life and it WON'T help solve crime, you're playing right into the hands of the Coalition for Gun Control. Make no mistake, pistol shooters in Canada don't want this shit, hunters don't want this shit, and if you think this won't affect you because all you've got is rifles, think again. Look at Britain, look at Australia, after they've taken all our pistols, they'll take all our rifles and shotguns, and if you're so willing to throw handgun owners under the bus due to crap like this they'll use that against you when they come for your Auto-5 or Lee-Enfield, and make no mistake, they will come for them. If you waver on one point, they'll hit you on others, if you give them an inch they'll take a mile. I'd rather be able to own an AK and a snubnose .38 under the next piece of gun legislation parliament introduces, not have them take away my pistols and semi-autos, and if you, as a gun owner, don't stand up for other gun owners that's exactly what'll happen, all the guns will be taken.

    Read up on the CSSA and NFA, they have a lot more to say on how piss-poor our gun laws are than I do.
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  15. Post #135
    Gold Member
    nivek's Avatar
    June 2009
    3,508 Posts
    Queue ignorant firearm arguments!
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  16. Post #136
    Gold Member
    Ybbat's Avatar
    December 2006
    960 Posts
    Oh God I hope you don't want this trash here, we're in such a shitty place with the Firearms Act now as it is because of people with the mentality "well it won't affect my guns, so why should I care?" the firearms act is a pile of unconstitutional garbage that has sent thousands of innocent people to prison for paper crimes such as this bullshit "safe storage" crap and the damn registry. Gun owners need to stand together against this kind of crap because it WON'T save a single life and it WON'T help solve crime, you're playing right into the hands of the Coalition for Gun Control. Make no mistake, pistol shooters in Canada don't want this shit, hunters don't want this shit, and if you think this won't affect you because all you've got is rifles, think again. Look at Britain, look at Australia, after they've taken all our pistols, they'll take all our rifles and shotguns, and if you're so willing to throw handgun owners under the bus due to crap like this they'll use that against you when they come for your Auto-5 or Lee-Enfield, and make no mistake, they will come for them. If you waver on one point, they'll hit you on others, if you give them an inch they'll take a mile. I'd rather be able to own an AK and a snubnose .38 under the next piece of gun legislation parliament introduces, not have them take away my pistols and semi-autos, and if you, as a gun owner, don't stand up for other gun owners that's exactly what'll happen, all the guns will be taken.

    Read up on the CSSA and NFA, they have a lot more to say on how piss-poor our gun laws are than I do.
    You see I'd rather have to register my guns then have untraceable guns. I believe that all the current gun control in Canada is completely fair.
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  17. Post #137
    Gold Member
    DaCommie1's Avatar
    June 2008
    7,130 Posts
    You see I'd rather have to register my guns then have untraceable guns. I believe that all the current gun control in Canada is completely fair.
    Do you know how useless the registry was? That it didn't allow you to trace a gun and only facilitated confiscation? That the passage of Bill C-68 allowed the government to STEAL millions of dollars of people's private property? That The Firearms Act has turned thousands of honest people who've owned guns for decades into criminals because they apparently aren't storing their gun right? Because they didn't have a useless piece of paper with their hunting rifle they've had since 1970? That since the long gun registry was introduced in 1998, and the pistol registry in 1934. NEITHER have ever prevented a crime or helped solve a single murder, ever, and reliance on the inaccurate data cost 2 Quebec police officers their lives?

    Gun control in this country is unconstitutional and is designed specifically to make shooting too boring and too much of a hassle, so then less people will do it making it easier to pass gun control because less people care. There is nothing "fair" about the Firearms Act, it's an attocious piece of legislative garbage that has failed to prevent a single robbery, murder, or suicide, which means it has failed its intended purposes wholly and utterly. Read up more about it, you'll find out just how atrocious it is, how it allows a man who fired at idiots firebombing his house to face the possibility of more jail time than the culprits, all because the police ALLEDGE he had a pistol in his nightstand, yet they can't prove it. That's the Firearms Act, a pile of shit that tries to send a man who was defending himself to jail for trying to do it with a gun.
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  18. Post #138
    Koenigsegg's Avatar
    October 2011
    1,281 Posts


    Workaround
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  19. Post #139
    JamesRaynor's Avatar
    May 2011
    393 Posts

    And really if it ever came to be criminals know about it so wow it takes all of 1 slide of the file across the pin and they've foiled your "game changer"

    Dunno, who would waste time filing down each and every cartridge they fired? Unless it's an execution it'd be too risky from what I see.
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  20. Post #140
    Gold Member
    Timebomb575's Avatar
    January 2011
    5,508 Posts
    Dunno, who would waste time filing down each and every cartridge they fired? Unless it's an execution it'd be too risky from what I see.
    file the firing pin, not the cartridges

  21. Post #141
    Gold Member
    trotskygrad's Avatar
    June 2011
    8,513 Posts
    Dunno, who would waste time filing down each and every cartridge they fired? Unless it's an execution it'd be too risky from what I see.
    or just police your brass and throw it in a river

  22. Post #142
    Resplendent Reenactor
    Zillamaster55's Avatar
    June 2010
    18,351 Posts
    or just police your brass and throw it in a river
    Or better.

    find a gun that uses caseless ammunition! The ultimate, unsolvable murder! Bwahaha!

  23. Post #143
    Gold Member
    Used Car Salesman's Avatar
    April 2009
    9,001 Posts
    I kinda like the idea of tagging spent cartridges with information from the gun that fired them, but this is far from foolproof. Any jerkoff can make one quick swipe over the pin with a file and erase the markings, and normal wear will get rid of them quickly as well.

    Besides, if your firing pin breaks or goes bad or gets lost, what are you gonna do? Send off your information and wait for some company to microstamp you a new one?

    Also anything like this will be obsolete when people can simply 3d print their gun parts with plans on TPB.

  24. Post #144
    Gold Member
    Madman_Andre's Avatar
    November 2007
    7,239 Posts
    Looks great on paper and in principle, but hellish and stupid in practice.
    Oh wow, I'm agreeing with you for a change.

    From a physics perspective, yes, anything etched into a firing pin(especially the tip) will quickly be worn off by the firing of the weapon, irregardless of what the pin is made of.
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  25. Post #145
    froztshock's Avatar
    August 2009
    2,850 Posts
    This is one of those things that sounds like a decent idea until you think about it for like five seconds.

    There are so many ways around it it's just ridiculous and I think the general consensus is that most criminals avoid legal methods of weapon acquisition anyways.

  26. Post #146
    Dennab
    June 2011
    2,108 Posts
    I wanna have your baby dacommie
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  27. Post #147
    I highly doubt that the pin would wear down enough that the radial serial number would disappear.
    You do not know what you're talking about. Stop posting.
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  28. Post #148
    What fun is there in making sense?
    Dennab
    October 2007
    9,274 Posts
    It's more along the lines of making "Saturday night specials" more expensive and less available.
    Because the poor don't have a right to self defense.
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  29. Post #149
    cqbcat's Avatar
    April 2010
    3,952 Posts
    Impractical. It would make manufacturing more expensive. Firing pins could get damaged by the gun functions. So many unmarked firing pins available. Anyone with a bit of gun smith, craftsmanship, or machining knowledge could make their own "off the grid" firing pin.

    Just seems like a detrimental move to the gun industry, gun enthusiasts, and our freedom in general.

  30. Post #150
    Gold Member
    Xenocidebot's Avatar
    April 2006
    5,061 Posts
    oh, hear that guys? We can just use harder pins. Problem solved.
    Actually, sounds like the time for somebody to drop some loose SCIENCE!

    Let's assume we're using a 9mm Glock with a titanium firing pin and firing generic Federal ammo. The activation energy for titanium to undergo plastic deformation (read: to smoosh and make the numbers illegible) is 192.8 Kilojoules/mole. A mole of titanium is 47.9 grams of the stuff, a bit more than our firing pin's head, and much more than the stamp, which is going to be about 1.9 milimeters wide with, going by the UC Davis study, 0.143 mm depressions, so about half of a 40.5 mm^3 cylinder of "stuff" we could deform if we wanted to smear the whole head. Titanium has a density of 4.51 grams per cm^3, and our half cylinder of stuff is 0.02025 cm^3, so we have 91.3 milligrams of titanium on the head. We get moles again from dividing mass by molar mass, so 0.0913/47.9 or 0.00191 moles of titanium, leaving us with an activation energy of 368.2 joules necessary to deform the firing pin's head.

    There's somewhere between 441 to 537 joules coming out of the barrel of this Glock, and since Newton's third law hasn't been repealed, we know that's about what's acting on the firing pin initially while the projectile gets the fuck out. However, the firing pin isn't just sitting there the entire time, it scoots backwards immediately after that brief impulse. Plastic deformation takes time. The resistance behind the firing pin is obviously pretty fucking low, obviously, since otherwise the gun wouldn't be semiautomatic. The much bigger issue is depositing of funny junk along the firing pin during that initial moment where the cartridge jams it backwards, but without extensive testing off sweaty brass-on-titanium action I can't comment on that.

    This would be in keeping with the UC Davis study, where the primary issues were on tiny little guns that didn't have enough room for the striker to move and ended up grinding the firing pin port itself or large guns that obviously just chewed up the stamp. So it'd totally work for large semiautomatic pistols. Or, at least, a Glock, for a while. And then for anything with a delay before the firing pin is completely free (rifles) or has too little room to move (small guns) it's a terrible idea unless you start tipping pins with unique diamonds.

    The real issue is, this adds $50 to the cost of a factory Glock just in materials, and etching titanium ain't like dusting crops. The industry dudes saying it's a $200 per gun thing are pretty accurate considering the engineering nightmare this is.

    Edited:

    I think the bigger issue here is the fact that law enforcement knows murderers favor revolvers in fairly large calibers, which microstamping does jack shit to. Also, stolen guns, considering you can ruin the stamp with a rock. This is going to affect violent criminals who behave unlike the majority of violent criminals.
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