1. Post #121
    Valnar's Avatar
    November 2007
    2,625 Posts
    immediately following the handgun ban came a decrease in crime committed with handguns as well as a 7 year period in which this rate remained constant before being interrupted by the crack epidemic
    That decrease in murders by handguns was already happening well before the ban took place.
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  2. Post #122
    quality poster
    Dennab
    August 2009
    12,242 Posts
    None of the data posted solidly backs up your claim.
    came a decrease in crime committed with handguns as well as a 7 year period in which this rate remained constant before being interrupted by the crack epidemic
    maybe if you're learning impaired and you completely misunderstood what i said that would be true but to anyone with the ability to read simple sentences, what i said was definitely accurate

  3. Post #123
    ASK ME ABOUT MY BAKELITE FETISH
    Dennab
    April 2011
    6,395 Posts


    as you can tell by this graph there is no reason to believe kopimi is either a turd burgler or a dong mongler
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  4. Post #124
    quality poster
    Dennab
    August 2009
    12,242 Posts
    That decrease in murders by handguns was already happening well before the ban took place.
    the 7 years of stability at the low point of that wobbly graph wasn't

    Edited:

    as you can tell by this graph there is no reason to believe kopimi is either a turd burgler or a dong mongler
    epic post but you missed LMAO pics by at least 2 subforums
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  5. Post #125
    Valnar's Avatar
    November 2007
    2,625 Posts
    the 7 years of stability at the low point of that wobbly graph wasn't
    How does that prove that the handgun ban was the cause of that stability?
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  6. Post #126
    quality poster
    Dennab
    August 2009
    12,242 Posts
    How does that prove that the handgun ban was the cause of that stability?
    because it immediately followed the introduction of the handgun ban. try to keep up
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  7. Post #127
    ASK ME ABOUT MY BAKELITE FETISH
    Dennab
    April 2011
    6,395 Posts
    because it immediately followed the introduction of the handgun ban. try to keep up
    because all laws have an instant effect, right?

  8. Post #128
    soccerskyman's Avatar
    October 2009
    4,279 Posts
    maybe if you're learning impaired and you completely misunderstood what i said that would be true but to anyone with the ability to read simple sentences, what i said was definitely accurate
    -snip im retarded and thought you posted something someone else posted-

  9. Post #129
    Valnar's Avatar
    November 2007
    2,625 Posts
    because it immediately followed the introduction of the handgun ban. try to keep up
    That doesn't prove anything except that the decrease in handgun murders stopped and stabilized shortly after a handgun ban.

    I could just as easily say that the handgun ban stopped the trend of decrease in handgun murders.

    Just because the handgun law correlated with a period of stable rates doesn't mean it necessarily caused it.

  10. Post #130
    quality poster
    Dennab
    August 2009
    12,242 Posts
    because all laws have an instant effect, right?
    considering the 7 years of stability immediately followed a piece of legislation that was introduced during a period of notable fluctuation and instability yeah apparently they do
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  11. Post #131
    Gold Member
    wraithcat's Avatar
    December 2007
    13,057 Posts
    the fact that the UK is an island also makes it much harder to smuggle them in

    here in the colonies we've got mexico
    An island would hypothetically make it easier to smuggle stuff in as you'vve got bigger boarders relatively to your actual size :P

  12. Post #132
    quality poster
    Dennab
    August 2009
    12,242 Posts
    That doesn't prove anything except that the decrease in handgun murders stopped and stabilized shortly after a handgun ban.

    I could just as easily say that the handgun ban stopped the trend of decrease in handgun murders and thus was a bad thing.

    Just because the handgun law correlated with a period of stable rates doesn't mean it necessarily caused it.
    if you want to play with dumb "maybe" logic and completely ignore any correlation in a set of data why bother bringing up this data in the first place. correlation = causation when it suits your argument but never the contrary
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  13. Post #133
    Gold Member
    Pepsi-cola's Avatar
    July 2009
    4,118 Posts
    I didn't even realise Chicago was in the UK.
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  14. Post #134
    quality poster
    Dennab
    August 2009
    12,242 Posts
    I didn't even realise Chicago was in the UK.
    is this dude still crying about the fact that people are posting about guns in a gun thread lol
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  15. Post #135
    soccerskyman's Avatar
    October 2009
    4,279 Posts
    correlation = causation when it suits your argument but never the contrary
    No. It doesn't. That's the problem.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correla...mply_causation

  16. Post #136
    Gold Member
    Disotrtion's Avatar
    February 2012
    2,382 Posts
    if you want to play with dumb "maybe" logic and completely ignore any correlation in a set of data why bother bringing up this data in the first place. correlation = causation when it suits your argument but never the contrary
    thats a funny way of saying "you're right but I don't like it"
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  17. Post #137
    soccerskyman's Avatar
    October 2009
    4,279 Posts
    -snip automerge broked-

  18. Post #138
    Valnar's Avatar
    November 2007
    2,625 Posts
    if you want to play with dumb "maybe" logic and completely ignore any correlation in a set of data why bother bringing up this data in the first place. correlation = causation when it suits your argument but never the contrary
    I'm saying that gun laws don't have a strong effect on gun crime.

    There has been a lot of data that suggests that less gun laws point to less crime. What that really shows is that guns being available and gun crime aren't very linked.

  19. Post #139
    Gold Member
    Pepsi-cola's Avatar
    July 2009
    4,118 Posts
    is this dude still crying about the fact that people are posting about guns in a gun thread lol
    Yes I am because this is the 4th page now where the same people have been talking about the same crap that doesn't really relate to the news post.

    Stopping criminal weapon trading has nothing to do with gun laws.

  20. Post #140
    quality poster
    Dennab
    August 2009
    12,242 Posts
    thats a funny way of saying "you're right but I don't like it"
    its a completely serious way of saying you can apply "correlation to causation" to even the most obvious trends but at some point (presumably this one) it becomes redundant and ridiculous. nobody seems to think correlation != causation when neat posts something pro-gun but as soon you point out a link between lowered handgun murder rates and gun control legislation that goes out the window and you guys just keep frantically crying "correlation does not equal causation" without offering any alternative explanation for the trend
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  21. Post #141
    Gold Member
    Disotrtion's Avatar
    February 2012
    2,382 Posts
    its a completely serious way of saying you can apply "correlation to causation" to even the most obvious trends but at some point (presumably this one) it becomes redundant and ridiculous. nobody seems to think correlation != causation when neat posts something pro-gun but as soon you point out a link between lowered handgun murder rates and gun control legislation that goes out the window and you guys just keep frantically crying "correlation does not equal causation" without offering any alternative explanation for the trend
    oh please
    he pointed out an entirely legitimate point and you're upset because you have no answer
    instead your going to cry about double standards which may or may not exist
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  22. Post #142
    ASK ME ABOUT MY BAKELITE FETISH
    Dennab
    April 2011
    6,395 Posts
    its a completely serious way of saying you can apply "correlation to causation" to even the most obvious trends but at some point (presumably this one) it becomes redundant and ridiculous. nobody seems to think correlation != causation when neat posts something pro-gun but as soon you point out a link between lowered handgun murder rates and gun control legislation that goes out the window and you guys just keep frantically crying "correlation does not equal causation" without offering any alternative explanation for the trend
    or

    we're all wrong and we have no idea what we're talking about because we have only a slight idea of how this shit works
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  23. Post #143
    quality poster
    Dennab
    August 2009
    12,242 Posts
    oh please
    he pointed out an entirely legitimate point and you're upset because you have no answer
    instead your going to cry about double standards which may or may not exist
    but it's not a legitimate point, for the reasons listed above lol

    Edited:

    or

    we're all wrong and we have no idea what we're talking about because we have only a slight idea of how this shit works
    then why would you bother posting that data and claiming it supports the idea that gun control causes crime
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  24. Post #144
    soccerskyman's Avatar
    October 2009
    4,279 Posts
    its a completely serious way of saying you can apply "correlation to causation" to even the most obvious trends but at some point (presumably this one) it becomes redundant and ridiculous. nobody seems to think correlation != causation when neat posts something pro-gun but as soon you point out a link between lowered handgun murder rates and gun control legislation that goes out the window and you guys just keep frantically crying "correlation does not equal causation" without offering any alternative explanation for the trend
    The black market, gun culture growth/decline, gun safety education, general crime rates, to name a few, are not variables that should be flat out ignored.
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  25. Post #145
    Valnar's Avatar
    November 2007
    2,625 Posts
    its a completely serious way of saying you can apply "correlation to causation" to even the most obvious trends but at some point (presumably this one) it becomes redundant and ridiculous. nobody seems to think correlation != causation when neat posts something pro-gun but as soon you point out a link between lowered handgun murder rates and gun control legislation that goes out the window and you guys just keep frantically crying "correlation does not equal causation" without offering any alternative explanation for the trend
    I did offer an alternative explanation for the trend.

    I said that the handgun ban might have stopped what could have been a further decrease in handgun murders.

    Another explanation, which I didn't say earlier, could be that stable point for 7 years might be some sort of floor for handgun murders that is hard to get under.

  26. Post #146
    MEGA SENPAI KAWAII UGUU~~ =^_^=
    Megafan's Avatar
    September 2008
    14,608 Posts
    oh please
    he pointed out an entirely legitimate point and you're upset because you have no answer
    instead your going to cry about double standards which may or may not exist
    You don't need an answer of your own to respond to or criticize an assertion.

    Edited:

    I did offer an alternative explanation for the trend.

    I said that the handgun ban might have stopped what could have been a further decrease in handgun murders.

    Another explanation, which I didn't say earlier, could be that stable point for 7 years might be some sort of floor for handgun murders that is hard to get under.
    Yeah, it might have but is there anything to suggest that it did? As far as I can tell Kopimi's explanation for the stability has to do with the type of fluctuation that was going on at the time the legislation was introduced, whereas yours is more or less a what-if question.
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  27. Post #147
    Gold Member
    Disotrtion's Avatar
    February 2012
    2,382 Posts
    but it's not a legitimate point, for the reasons listed above lol
    What? you're looking at a graph and seeing only what you want to see and then when some points out something different
    you whine about perceived bias or just close your eyes and ignore what they wrote
    "no no no you're all wrong"

    Edited:

    You don't need an answer of your own to respond to or criticize an assertion.
    Except its not a response, he's just dodging the point.
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  28. Post #148
    Valnar's Avatar
    November 2007
    2,625 Posts
    You don't need an answer of your own to respond to or criticize an assertion.

    Edited:



    Yeah, it might have but is there anything to suggest that it did? As far as I can tell Kopimi's explanation for the stability has to do with the type of fluctuation that was going on at the time the legislation was introduced, whereas yours is more or less a what-if question.
    The main reason I called into question kopimi's explanation is because of the very significant decrease in handgun murders that was already happening a few years before the ban was implemented.

    Because of that the correlation between handgun ban and murder stability is kinda weak because it shows that the stability may have happened regardless of the ban.

    If that decrease before the ban had not happened than it would be a different story.

  29. Post #149

    September 2012
    848 Posts
    So Boeing's heads should be given life.

  30. Post #150
    Actually a cool guy
    David29's Avatar
    June 2005
    3,028 Posts
    Banning weapons is retarded. It's just like the prohibition of alcohol and the drug war. It keeps it out of law-abiding citizens' hands, creates an unregulated black market, and doesn't do shit to stop the flow of guns.

    Edited:

    I mean, fuck, look at Chicago.
    Except that firearm offences in the UK have fallen below what they were when they were first banned. Given the respective population increase during the period as well, I would say that it has worked out quite nicely for us.
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  31. Post #151
    Jsm
    "Belgium is pretty much a non-country"
    Jsm's Avatar
    June 2006
    8,036 Posts
    however, going by those statistics, stricter gun laws being implemented was followed by an increase of crime, and more relaxed gun laws was followed by a decrease in crime on many occasions

    what does that tell you
    It doesn't tell me anything. You have to infer things from it. The increase in crime could be caused by other factors.

    Edited:

    Except that firearm offences in the UK have fallen below what they were when they were first banned. Given the respective population increase during the period as well, I would say that it has worked out quite nicely for us.
    You have hit on what I was just thinking about when I posted my last post. Its entirely possible that maybe just maybe its a culture thing.
    Perhaps our criminals just don't like using guns.

  32. Post #152
    This probably isn't a good idea
    Camundongo's Avatar
    October 2007
    3,400 Posts
    You have hit on what I was just thinking about when I posted my last post. Its entirely possible that maybe just maybe its a culture thing.
    Perhaps our criminals just don't like using guns.
    I did read somewhere that they're generally avoided by a lot of criminals because it ups the ante too much, and that the police will invest more time and money in tracking down suspects in cases involving firearms, so there isn't much pay off in using one.
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  33. Post #153
    Proudly supporting the JIDF
    Dennab
    July 2010
    22,111 Posts
    Statistics can be interpreted to back whatever argument you may have.
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  34. Post #154
    The Union Jack would look a shit ton better with a Hammer and Sickle in the middle of it
    Bobie's Avatar
    November 2007
    7,289 Posts
    Than doesn't that say the same thing for the effectiveness of UK gun laws?
    If guns don't have an actual link with gun crime than that means that gun laws are pointless.
    the uk has a higher standard of living and a lot of gun crime comes from areas that do not have that standard of living

    go figure

    heres my statistical chart to show that sharks have been fucking more since the gun ban. it doesn't mean the odds are in my favour when i say gun bans cause shark fucking
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  35. Post #155
    BorisJ's Avatar
    August 2012
    177 Posts
    "Here son, try to shoot that clay pidgeon"

    Life in prison.
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  36. Post #156
    GAYLORD
    Wikipedia Vandilisation Contest Winner
    joe588's Avatar
    June 2005
    15,017 Posts
    Banning weapons is retarded. It's just like the prohibition of alcohol and the drug war. It keeps it out of law-abiding citizens' hands, creates an unregulated black market, and doesn't do shit to stop the flow of guns.

    Edited:

    I mean, fuck, look at Chicago.
    Sorry but illegal guns are pretty rare here. The ones that do exist are usually shite with botched ammo. The law does work.

    There was some American bloke importing brand new handguns from the us, that was absolutely massive news when he was busted. I'm not sure how many of the guns are still about, last time I read there were about 5 still unaccounted for. That episode was extremely rare and the police (rightfully) took it very seriously.
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  37. Post #157
    The Union Jack would look a shit ton better with a Hammer and Sickle in the middle of it
    Bobie's Avatar
    November 2007
    7,289 Posts
    "Here son, try to shoot that clay pidgeon"

    Life in prison.
    i was going to point out all the things that are horribly wrong with this statement, then i realised your name and that you probably find some form of appeal in boris johnson. therefore making you a complete tool.
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  38. Post #158
    Proudly supporting the JIDF
    Dennab
    July 2010
    22,111 Posts
    Well I have been reading a bit through that site:



    I'm kinda thinking that the people who say "More repressive gun control will increase homicide/crime" don't seem to be actually correct. At the very least, this graph seems to be showing that crime rates remained stable before sharply rising in the 80s and then seeing a huge decline thereafter. The slight correlation with the US as a whole too may also give weight that gun control does not do anything to increase crime rates whatsoever.


    Now this is interesting:

    Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the percentage of Chicago murders committed with handguns has averaged about 40% higher than it was before the law took effect.
    Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the Chicago murder rate has averaged 17% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 25% lower.
    Perhaps one argument I could make is that whilst the percentage of murders committed using guns has increased, the total number of murders have actually decreased.

  39. Post #159
    Gold Member
    Fourm Shark's Avatar
    October 2009
    6,000 Posts
    As it is now, in the united states, restricting guns wouldn't do much in terms of lowering crime. Sure, you might take the guns away from some people who legally owned guns that might use them to rob a store or kill someone they don't like, but then chances are they would just switch to a knife. Besides that however, gun restriction would have no effect on the people who illegally own guns. AKA gangs and criminals. They would continue operating as they usually do. Except now, a legal gun owner would lack a vital home defense weapon.

    Sure, in the UK its different, because guns were less common to begin with.

  40. Post #160
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2005
    15,081 Posts
    Sure, in the UK its different, because guns were less common to begin with.
    That is true.

    It's the general problem with having a massive civilian arms industry, they have so much political power and money even though nearly half a million firearms 'disappear' into the black market every year. Directly from the factories.