1. Post #241
    Gold Member
    Zeke129's Avatar
    July 2007
    42,018 Posts
    I certainly don't. I hold about as much power in society as any female, in fact less than most females I've met.
    Well that's because you're not a statistical breakdown of males and the women you met aren't a statistical breakdown of females.

    There's a black man as president of the United States, does this mean black people aren't disadvantaged? I hate making this a racial debate but the parallels are perfect.
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  2. Post #242

    December 2011
    260 Posts
    I certainly don't. I hold about as much power in society as any female, in fact less than most females I've met.
    One of the most diverse US government seatings in history still saw men outseat women by 360 members in the House (out of a total 435) and 83 in the Senate (out of a total 100).

    Your extremely limited personal view of the male/female power dichotomy is not accurate at all so don't present it as evidence please.
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  3. Post #243
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    Dennab
    February 2006
    22,239 Posts
    Well that's because you're not a statistical breakdown of males and the women you met aren't a statistical breakdown of females.
    So then what am I supposed to do? How am I in any way part of the problem when I reap literally no benefit from being a man?
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  4. Post #244
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    Dennab
    February 2006
    22,239 Posts
    The most diverse house of US Congress in history still saw men outseat women by 360 members in the House (out of a total 435) and 83 in the Senate (out of a total 100).

    Your extremely limited personal view of the male/female power dichotomy is not accurate at all so don't present it as evidence please.
    The point is going way over your head.
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  5. Post #245
    Gold Member
    Zeke129's Avatar
    July 2007
    42,018 Posts
    So then what am I supposed to do? How am I in any way part of the problem when I reap literally no benefit from being a man?
    How do you know you reap no benefits from being a man? Have you ever been a woman for a statistically significant length of time to draw comparisons?
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  6. Post #246
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    Contag's Avatar
    July 2010
    11,827 Posts
    The shit about the hormones is true though.


    In a lot of cases, men in their 80's 100 years ago, have the same test levels as 20 year olds do today.

    That shits fucked up.

    What?
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  7. Post #247
    Gold Member
    Vasili's Avatar
    December 2007
    10,944 Posts
    How do you know you reap no benefits from being a man? Have you ever been a woman for a statistically significant length of time to draw comparisons?
    I think each side has its own benefits though what is there to benefit from being a man exactly this conspiracy that men control women through gender role indoctrination is kind of confusing me.
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  8. Post #248
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    Dennab
    February 2006
    22,239 Posts
    How do you know you reap no benefits from being a man? Have you ever been a woman for a statistically significant length of time to draw comparisons?
    No, but I have seen opportunities given to women that men are not applicable for. Women get more money from welfare, they have better access to rehabilitation clinics, they are given better mental health counseling, they are given lighter sentences on crimes. They are also on average payed more in every job I have worked. It's actually a whole lot easier to be a poor female than a poor male since most social programs are aimed at females first.

    The only tangible benefit I can see myself getting(that women don't also get) is that I can't get pregnant from sex.

    Now I go back to my earlier question. How am I part of the problem when I don't reap benefits as a man? How am I part of the problem when I am just as(if not more) disadvantaged than most women I've ever met?
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  9. Post #249

    December 2011
    260 Posts
    I think each side has its own benefits though what is there to benefit from being a man exactly this conspiracy that men control women through gender role indoctrination is kind of confusing me.
    Can you name one house of government anywhere where women hold an equal amount of seats as men?

    Or have held?

  10. Post #250
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    July 2010
    11,827 Posts
    There was a study by Simon Baron-Cohen, a Cambridge Univ. professor of psychology and psychiatry, claims that the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for empathy, while the male brain is mainly; for the most part hard-wired for understanding and building systems. There was also a study that discovered its possible that males and females don't have a 'fixed' brain and take traits from each sex, hence the term 'tomboy' females or 'flamboyant' for men.
    You have to be a bit careful with psychology, because it's entirely possible for people to assume that current modes of thinking have always been in place, when that's not really true. Most of them don't hold up to a cross-historical and cross-cultural analysis.

    And evolutionary psychology is about as scientific as astrology.
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  11. Post #251

    December 2011
    260 Posts
    No, but I have seen opportunities given to women that men are not applicable for. Women get more money from welfare, they have better access to rehabilitation clinics, they are given better mental health counseling, they are given lighter sentences on crimes. They are also on average payed more in every job I have worked. It's actually a whole lot easier to be a poor female than a poor male since most social programs are aimed at females first.

    The only tangible benefit I can see myself getting(that women don't also get) is that I can't get pregnant from sex.

    Now I go back to my earlier question. How am I part of the problem when I don't reap benefits as a man? How am I part of the problem when I am just as(if not more) disadvantaged than most women I've ever met?
    Again, your (relatively) limited view of life is not accurate at all in measuring the man/woman opportunity balance
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  12. Post #252
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    Zeke129's Avatar
    July 2007
    42,018 Posts
    No, but I have seen opportunities given to women that men are not applicable for. Women get more money from welfare, they have better access to rehabilitation clinics, they are given better mental health counseling, they are given lighter sentences on crimes. They are also on average payed more in every job I have worked. It's actually a whole lot easier to be a poor female than a poor male since most social programs are aimed at females first.
    How come statistics, for the money-related ones at least, clearly show that your anecdotes aren't representative of what's actually happening? Fill me in on the mental health counselling one, though. I've never heard it before.

    Now I go back to my earlier question. How am I part of the problem when I don't reap benefits as a man? How am I part of the problem when I am just as(if not more) disadvantaged than most women I've ever met?
    Because your own experience isn't the be-all and end-all
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  13. Post #253
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    Dennab
    February 2006
    22,239 Posts
    Again, your (relatively) limited view of life is not accurate at all in measuring the man/woman opportunity balance
    Answer my damn question, then.
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  14. Post #254
    Gold Member
    Vasili's Avatar
    December 2007
    10,944 Posts
    Can you name one house of government anywhere where women hold an equal amount of seats as men?

    Or have held?
    but that doesn't mean that women are being controlled by men or they are being deliberately pushed away from politics or positions of power out of sexism or gender role philosophy. One of Britain's most famous and successful leaders was a woman. Germany currently has a woman PM as well as a few other nations, historically Britain has had itself quite a few famous women leaders.

    You have to be a bit careful with psychology, because it's entirely possible for people to assume that current modes of thinking have always been in place, when that's not really true. Most of them don't hold up to a cross-historical and cross-cultural analysis.

    And evolutionary psychology is about as scientific as astrology.
    I think this was the study in question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathi...emizing_theory

  15. Post #255
    own-fucking-zone
    Within's Avatar
    April 2009
    4,016 Posts
    I very heavily approve of this thread.
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  16. Post #256

    December 2011
    260 Posts
    Answer my damn question, then.
    Uh I guess you personally aren't 'part of the problem' assuming you're not just bullshitting for the sake of the argument? who cares women are still disadvantaged
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  17. Post #257
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    Zeke129's Avatar
    July 2007
    42,018 Posts
    but that doesn't mean that women are being controlled by men or they are being deliberately pushed away from politics or positions of power out of sexism or gender role philosophy. One of Britain's most famous and successful leaders was a woman. Germany currently has a woman PM as well as a few other nations, historically Britain has had itself quite a few famous women leaders.
    Obama
    black
    America

    I'm bringing this out again
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  18. Post #258
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    Dennab
    February 2006
    22,239 Posts
    How come statistics, for the money-related ones at least, clearly show that your anecdotes aren't representative of what's actually happening?
    The pay as far as jobs goes isn't indicative of anything, but more to illustrate my point that if there is some giant male conspiracy trying to systematically persecute women, I sure as hell wasn't filled in. However it is pretty well known that women get more money in the form of welfare than men.

    Fill me in on the mental health counselling one, though. I've never heard it before.
    That generally goes through welfare. Women have an easier time getting free sessions with "BHR"(behavioral health resources) via DSHS(welfare office) than men.
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  19. Post #259
    Gold Member
    Vasili's Avatar
    December 2007
    10,944 Posts
    Obama
    black
    America

    I'm bringing this out again
    I don't understand what you mean by that
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  20. Post #260
    Gold Member
    Zeke129's Avatar
    July 2007
    42,018 Posts
    The pay as far as jobs goes isn't indicative of anything, but more to illustrate my point that if there is some giant male conspiracy trying to systematically persecute women, I sure as hell wasn't filled in. However it is pretty well known that women get more money in the form of welfare than men.

    That generally goes through welfare. Women have an easier time getting free sessions with "BHR"(behavioral health resources) via DSHS(welfare office) than men.
    Well that doesn't cost money at all here so it's no wonder I hadn't heard of it. But I can assure you the poverty statistics in my country clearly show that women aren't receiving greater assistance.
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  21. Post #261

    December 2011
    260 Posts
    but more to illustrate my point that if there is some giant male conspiracy trying to systematically persecute women, I sure as hell wasn't filled in.
    *No one* said this
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  22. Post #262
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    Zeke129's Avatar
    July 2007
    42,018 Posts
    I don't understand what you mean by that
    America having a black head of state does not mean that blacks are not disadvantaged in America

    the same applies to woman heads of state
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  23. Post #263
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    Dennab
    February 2006
    22,239 Posts
    Uh I guess you personally aren't 'part of the problem' assuming you're not just bullshitting for the sake of the argument? who cares women are still disadvantaged
    I'm not saying that they aren't. I'm not saying that society as is, is perfect. I'm saying that and a man it is wrong for me to impose standards on women as say that they need to follow a certain standard of liberation. Society is improving because women are fighting for their power more, and that's good. That's what needs to happen. I don't need to help them, as that would in a sense cheapen their victory, and I don't need to impede them.

    A woman is equal in my eyes and can fight for whatever standard in society she wants. Women as a group are able to do that, but it is up to them to do it.

    Edited:

    Well that doesn't cost money at all here so it's no wonder I hadn't heard of it. But I can assure you the poverty statistics in my country clearly show that women aren't receiving greater assistance.
    You're in Canada, I'm in the United States. Things work a bit differently here so I'm not surprised that there was a mistranslation.
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  24. Post #264
    Gold Member
    Zeke129's Avatar
    July 2007
    42,018 Posts
    I'm not saying that they aren't. I'm not saying that society as is, is perfect. I'm saying that as a man it is wrong for me to impose standards on women as say that they need to follow a certain standard of liberation. Society is improving because women are fighting for their power more, and that's good. That's what needs to happen. I don't need to help them, as that would in a sense cheapen their victory, and I don't need to impede them.

    A woman is equal in my eyes and can fight for whatever standard in society she wants. Women as a group are able to do that, but it is up to them to do it.
    This is exactly like gays, who also get paid less and are underrepresented in government. Is it their responsibility to change or the society that's causing the discrepancy?
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  25. Post #265
    Gold Member
    Vasili's Avatar
    December 2007
    10,944 Posts
    America having a black head of state does not mean that blacks are not disadvantaged in America

    the same applies to woman heads of state
    oh right

    but it does show they can get into positions of power

  26. Post #266
    Gold Member
    Zeke129's Avatar
    July 2007
    42,018 Posts
    oh right

    but it does show they can get into positions of power
    nobody said they can't

    but compare how many male heads of state there are to how many female heads of state there are
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  27. Post #267
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    Dennab
    February 2006
    22,239 Posts
    *No one* said this
    There is a subtle implication with many feminists. I think it is in a way easier to hate and demonize the sex that has been complicit and at times enforced a gender role, rather than simply break free of your own conditioning and societal constructs and demand equal rights yourself.

    However, I take a lot of offense when people say that men are trying to hold together some patriarchy and suppress women, because that throws me right in there with them. There are men that try and do it, but it's a huge generalization on par with "all muslims wish to subjugate women".
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  28. Post #268
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    Zeke129's Avatar
    July 2007
    42,018 Posts
    There is a subtle implication with many feminists. I think it is in a way easier to hate and demonize the sex that has been complicit and at times enforced a gender role, rather than simply break free of your own conditioning and societal constructs and demand equal rights yourself.

    However, I take a lot of offense when people say that men are trying to hold together some patriarchy and suppress women, because that throws me right in there with them. There are men that try and do it, but it's a huge generalization on par with "all muslims wish to subjugate women".
    but this thread was about MRAs, not all men

    that being said if you're a decent person you should be advocating to get rid of inequalities
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  29. Post #269
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    Dennab
    February 2006
    22,239 Posts
    This is exactly like gays, who also get paid less and are underrepresented in government. Is it their responsibility to change or the society that's causing the discrepancy?
    It's their responsibility to move forward(which they fucking are already!). I already said that I won't vote for someone who wants to impede on women's rights or force certain values on them. It's the exact same thing with gays. They are ultimately responsible to go up to the table and demand their share, but I'm not going to vote for anyone that wants to impede them in any systematic way.
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  30. Post #270
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    Zeke129's Avatar
    July 2007
    42,018 Posts
    It's their responsibility to move forward(which they fucking are already!). I already said that I won't vote for someone who wants to impede on women's rights or force certain values on them. It's the exact same thing with gays. They are ultimately responsible to go up to the table and demand their share, but I'm not going to vote for anyone that wants to impede them in any systematic way.
    But by supporting a laissez-faire, "*blind" approach you ARE impeding them
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  31. Post #271
    Gold Member
    Vasili's Avatar
    December 2007
    10,944 Posts
    nobody said they can't

    but compare how many male heads of state there are to how many female heads of state there are
    I honestly don't believe that's because men don't want them in power though, at least in Britain anyway. I think this is a cultural thing where in America (can't speak for Canada) still has a relativity high Patriarchy culture. Last I looked the United States has 16.8% women representatives, Japan has 9.4%, Rwanda, with 48.8%, and Sweden, with 47%, have the highest representation of women in any parliament in the world, versus the UK at just over 19% women MPs. Countries ranked above the UK in the world league include Afghanistan, Australia, Rwanda, Belarus, Pakistan, New Zealand and 27 other European states, including far, far ahead of us, the Scandinavian countries. Spain comes a commendable fifth in the European Women in Politics League with 36.3% female MPs. More than half of Spanish cabinet ministers are women.

    Actually looking into it more, in Britain today, 22% of MPs in the House of Commons and 20% of members of the House of Lords are women. Currently there is a higher percentage of female MPs among the younger generation of politicians being elected than in previous parliaments. Of the 28 MPs currently under the age of 30 in the House of Commons half are female and half male.
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  32. Post #272
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    Dennab
    February 2006
    22,239 Posts
    But by supporting a laissez-faire, "*blind" approach you ARE impeding them
    How so? It isn't blind in any way. It is passive. I can't change society, outside of myself. I am not a woman so I can't empathize with their persecution on a real level(since I've apparently never felt it firsthand). It is up to that group to do what is right for themselves, because any aid from me is cheap and will ultimately be insincere on some level due to the fact I can't fully empathize. From even a sliver of insincerity in me, it is ultimately sexist because it creates the mindset that I know what's best for them, even though I have never walked in their shoes or shared in their oppression.
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  33. Post #273
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    Zeke129's Avatar
    July 2007
    42,018 Posts
    I honestly don't believe that's because men don't want them in power though, at least in Britain anyway. I think this is a cultural thing where in America (can't speak for Canada) still has a relativity high Patriarchy culture. Last I looked the United States has 16.8% women representatives, Japan has 9.4%, Rwanda, with 48.8%, and Sweden, with 47%, have the highest representation of women in any parliament in the world, versus the UK at just over 19% women MPs. Countries ranked above the UK in the world league include Afghanistan, Australia, Rwanda, Belarus, Pakistan, New Zealand and 27 other European states, including far, far ahead of us, the Scandinavian countries. Spain comes a commendable fifth in the European Women in Politics League with 36.3% female MPs. More than half of Spanish cabinet ministers are women.
    Given that governments are to represent the people, and that the people are comprised 51/49 female/male, most of those numbers with the exception of two are abysmal

    Edited:

    From even a sliver of insincerity in me, it is ultimately sexist because it creates the mindset that I know what's best for them, even though I have never walked in their shoes or shared in their oppression.
    but that's wrong and not what supporting feminism is about

    how is your mind so twisted up in believing that by supporting the woman's rights movement you are being misogynistic?
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  34. Post #274
    Gold Member
    Vasili's Avatar
    December 2007
    10,944 Posts
    Given that governments are to represent the people, and that the people are comprised 51/49 female/male, most of those numbers with the exception of two are abysmal
    but the figures are still growing and its not necessarily a conspiracy case of 'men just don't want women in power'. Maybe in North America but at least Europe is progressing.
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  35. Post #275
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    Dennab
    February 2006
    22,239 Posts
    but that's wrong and not what supporting feminism is about

    how is your mind so twisted up in believing that by supporting the woman's rights movement you are being misogynistic?
    What is supporting feminism about then? You tell me.

  36. Post #276
    Gold Member
    Vasili's Avatar
    December 2007
    10,944 Posts
    What is supporting feminism about then? You tell me.
    Equal rights for women, its foundations anyway.

  37. Post #277
    Gold Member
    Zeke129's Avatar
    July 2007
    42,018 Posts
    What is supporting feminism about then? You tell me.
    If you support feminism you support total equality for women worldwide. It isn't about having her go get you a beer while you solve her problems for her like you seem to think.

    What's a straight person supporting gay rights?
    What's a white person supporting minority rights?
    What's a rich person against the wealth disparity?

    They're not part of the problem, that's for sure. But what's any of the former groups in those three examples simply saying "oh, whatever will be will be"? The problem.
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  38. Post #278
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    Dennab
    February 2006
    22,239 Posts
    If you support feminism you support total equality for women worldwide. It isn't about having her go get you a beer while you solve her problems for her like you seem to think.

    What's a straight person supporting gay rights?
    What's a white person supporting minority rights?
    What's a rich person against the wealth disparity?

    They're not part of the problem, that's for sure.
    But in what capacity does someone have to "support" that? If you read my posts, you see that I am already in support of equality for women. However, I believe the best way to do it is through my own vote, and that it is a bit cheap for me to be an activist about it when I don't personally know what they have gone through.
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  39. Post #279
    Gold Member
    Contag's Avatar
    July 2010
    11,827 Posts
    there are plenty of different types of feminism though, obviously
    I don't think you can remove sexism by ignoring racism, or ableism and so on
    (looking at you, white feminist bloggers)

  40. Post #280
    Gold Member
    Zeke129's Avatar
    July 2007
    42,018 Posts
    But in what capacity does someone have to "support" that? If you read my posts, you see that I am already in support of equality for women. However, I believe the best way to do it is through my own vote, and that it is a bit cheap for me to be an activist about it when I don't personally know what they have gone through.
    So do you think this thread was somehow patronizing towards women
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