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Post #41I get so tired of these debates.
Socialism with democracies seems like the better end of the scale to compare to capitalism. Plenty of countries practice socialism and they work really well. Then again, some have it and don't work well. Same with capitalism.
Socialism=/=communism.
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Right.
In fact there's opposite. While perfect communism wouldn't have wages, everything up to that would. The "iron law of wages" requires that people be paid differently for different services. Marx himself even wrote about how not all labor is equal, and not all people are equal in ability, so it would be harmful to pay all equally, although he was a strong critic of the law of wages.
He argues directly against wage equality in calling such a system "crude communism", saying that it comes about from envy and anger of the oppressed once they have power over the oppressors, and who look to tear down existing society to their previous minimum, where they were in society, and that it has no real benefit and acts to destroy personality and individuality.
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communism doesn't work.
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and how do you know that? communism has never existed.
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It's never existed because it can't.
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Really. So just because something doesn't exist now, it means it will never exist?
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Humans don't work like that.
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work like what? explain your logic.
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Communism goes against human nature.
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True Communism doesn't work, the "modified" communism doesn't work, name a nation that is better off than any of the capitalist countries.
the Debate should be Socailism vs Capitalism
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'True' Communism has never been properly implemented so you can't say it doesn't work.
Capitalism has never been properly implemented either - there has never been a fully Capitalist economy.
Also human nature is not inherently greedy - Liberalism promotes this idea but other ideologies offer a different definition.
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That's a wonderfull explanation right there coolsteve.
It's very apparent that you have read all the posts in this thread, yes.
Now leave, please.
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worst political theory argument ever
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Disagree.
Yes it did, read thread.
Sure we do.
No it doesn't. Human nature does not exist beyond our survival needs. Any other form of human nature has been more or less trained into us by thousands of years of societal norms, and is not human nature, and is changed depending on the society and social norms.
Communist:
Paris Commune, Free Territory (somewhat), Anarchist Spain and Communist Spain in Civil War
Marxist Socialist:
Soviet Hungary, arguably Russian Republic (between February 1917 and October 1917)
Various socialist:
Venezuela today is alot better off than some capitalist nations, even though it's still shit. Social Democracies in Europe (Sweden, Norway, Denmark) and partial social democracies (Germany, France, UK), which are modified socialist, modified again from Marxism.
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In their purest form, they both suck. There needs to be a mix of both, with varying levels depending on society and current affairs.
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Argument to moderation if I've ever seen one. Just because the two are opposed, doesn't mean that the right answer must be a compromise of the two.
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The "human nature" argument never works anyway. That's already a theory. It can be an argument as much as a counter argument. Nobody holds any real truth onto that.
Freud believed that the humans were what animals are; greedy, lazy, and slaves of their desires (of any kind.) He liked to compare the humans to any wild animals; Before there was any society, there weren't any morals; not a single sense of good and bad. The humans were pretty much raping each other, killing each other, eating each other and stealing food from each other, just like animals do. Now Freud says that society itself goes against human nature. It forces you to work and limit your natural desires. The human nature always lies inside of us; it's all the things we consider bad; they're not actually bad, our morals just want them to be bad so we don't destroy society, for it is supposed to protect and help all who are part of it.
It's pretty interesting because Freud had his own opinion on that. For him, communism (in its purest form; not socialism, not marxism) would work when humans would "grow up". He considered that in his days (He lived through the beginning of the 20th), USSR would not last more than a century, as humans aren't mature enough yet. He thought we still needed centuries of education within society and culture to almost eliminate the barbaric desires that lie inside of all of us.
His theory is pretty interesting because it seems to have true aspects; for example, nowadays, it's really rare to stumble upon one who has a desire of incest. All in all, it seems like something pretty natural, animals do it. As some realized it wasn't really great to create intelligent beings and expand society, somebody thought it would be a good thing to forbid it. If there was the need to forbid it in the first place, it means it was something that existed and that was a problem. But nowadays, who really has this desire anymore? A few people there and there. A few cultures where it has always been okay. In cultures where it's been forbidden, people think it's gross thanks to centuries and centuries of education and morals.
Many philosophers think that humans still need to go through long stages of education for things like communism to work efficiently. To many philosophers, human nature can't be changed, society and education just add new chances for humans to express their desires. (Easier to steal stuff nowadays than it was in the wild.)
On the other hand, philosophers like Rousseau believe that humans in the wilds are sociable and good, just like some animals are (A lot of birds act this way for example), hencing why we live in a structured society nowadays. Humans were reasonable enough to form an alliance and start cooperating.
So yeah, if you are going to criticize a political/economical/social/moral system based on what you think human nature is, get a fucking clue coolsteve. Don't randomly throw senseless shit and make your point a little valid instead of assuming what you think is true is the truth.
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You're a moron to not want Communism, but you're just as much as a moron to think it'd properly work.
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Sounds to me like you're just paraphrasing Putin.
“Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain.”
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Neither, social democracy is the best, just look over here at Scandinavia.
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While it is good for our times, it does not mean it is the end-all be-all for governance. I'm sure the feudal lords of old thought Feudalism was the best, but that changed, didn't it?
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A great man once said; If you are a dick, People shall mess with your title
January 2011
3,595 Posts
Both suck in their own ways. Socialism is a nice mix.
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Communism is a utopian ideal. Humans, as many know, are inherently greedy and will take as they see fit. Ergo, communism can't work to its fullest potential. You see it fall apart, namely, in larger countries.
In small communities it works well, so long as everyone knows and likes one another.
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As a European, a German to be more certain, I have much clearer view on both Capitalism and Communism because my nation
was fucked and used by both (and also fucked the most by that Hitler basterd and his Natsees).
I tell you American-Mc Carthys that this answer to the question is: A bit of both.
But never underestimate the enviromental-saving part, because to
nature and the eco-system both Capitalism and Socialism/Communism are deadly.
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Huh. Strange coincidence. I'd honestly no idea that Putin said it.
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Here's an interesting thought: capitalism is utopian. Easily a great deal more utopian than communism/socialism/anarchism (any -ism that conforms to the idea of free association and statelessness). Here's why.
Capitalism is propped up by the state. Corporations, and the excesses of capitalism that basically everyone agrees is vile and disgusting, simply wouldn't exist without the state's support. The state's interference in our association with each other by enforcing taxation, minimum wage, bailing out private organisations with public money, etc, they do nothing but prop these vile institutions up (does anyone actually support stuff like the bailing out of banks, wage slavery, unfair wages in developing countries, etc?).
Now imagine a stateless society. We're free to associate with every man equally because there's no monopoly over the use of force (which isn't to say we aren't at liberty to the private use of force, but who'd you rather get beaten up by? the lone bully or the police?). Huge excesses of power/wealth wouldn't exist because we'd be free to strike up our own deals and sell our labour for whatever price we want (this part is FUCKING INTEGRAL TO MY ARGUMENT: if you think communism is about wage equality you're a fucking ignorant douchebag and you're doing nothing but destroying the credibility of a theory).
State-backed capitalism is utopian because it pretends that letting all of the bullies gang up on everyone isn't a recipe for a fucking disaster. If you thought the worst of human nature, you still have every reason to be an anarchist. At least in anarchy the douchebags would be privitised and couldn't get their mates in the state to shake us down to bail them out (don't make the mistake of thinking the state isn't stealing from us. if I don't pay my taxes I'm forceably thrown in jail. it's theft on every fucking account of theft that exists.)
Edited:
the state is analogous to kidnapping someone and expecting him to pay you for feeding him
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There are no and never will be any communist nations. That just doesn't make sense. Look up what communism means, why don't you?
Edited:
really? that explains why tribes, the "natural" organization of humans, is communist.
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Yes, humans are inherently greedy, except when they aren't.
That is to say, they are not inherently greedy.
Edited:
False. Germany is not and has never been Communist.
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I believe he means East Germany. And yes that wasn't communist, but most people say communism when they mean socialism, and say socialism when they mean mixed market.
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And that's why there will never be communism.
Nations will forge to continental states rather then the state will extinct
for that ridicolous madness the anti-german marx had unleashed on to
this world. As a German I hate Marx. He was a traitor ruining his
fatherland with his fucked deconstructive work while he was in Britain since years
and living his life as a normal "borgeouise" because of recitating his way
through the parlors. Thats why we Germans call him a "Salonsozialist" - a parlor-socialist.
Not leading the people with his ideas, he only did that for the good living.
Fat jewish bastard. Nothing antisemite, but he was in fact a jew.
Who really believes in communism can be compared with those shitheads
who want to establish the global califate for allah and crush the old order.
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Sigh. There's so so so many confusions in people's conception of basically all the decent political theories. I wish there was some way of actually getting it across to people en masse. I'd like to one day write some kind of book or something to explore philosophical/political book that's obscenely accessible and easy and free.
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honestly, all this shit about germany and hating marx 'as a german' makes you sound like a bigoted nationalist. isn't that a serbian (or something) war hero in your avatar?
Edited:
you are a nationalist, aren't you?
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You got it, Captain Obvious.
And I will die for my nation possibly. Civil war to get rid of the leftist menace
is not pure fiction here in Europe if the people do not get rid
of the actual leftist government in most states.
I absolutely admire hungarys or even frances healthy national-strength and there cultural-awareness.
I would go that far to that the only people who where killed by the Nazis
out of real reason where the leftist enemies of the state and fatherland.
I hope for a strong united Europe under French-German leadership to encounter
future.
I absolutely despise the leftist tactics of cultural-weakening through miss-migration,
but with Frontex we'll keep that neo-bolshevik-cannon-fodder from Africa out.
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Lol fash, enjoy your antifa beatings. Now do us all a favor and get out of this thread.
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I am anti-communist, not a Nazi.
By the way: I looked up that "knuckle dragger" insult
of yours, racist.
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The poster who called communists 'sub-human' is criticizing others for supposedly being racist?
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facepunch double standards in action
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I said fascist, not nazi. Freudian slip? Or just another right wing hooligan's stupid musings?
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Which will then of course be ignored completely, as sensationalist trash.
Edited:
How do you know states will grow stronger? if people no longer want states, then states will absolve. And stop acting like all Germans are the same, they don't all hate Marx, and he was not anti-German. He may have head his heads in the cloud (that is up for debate) but he was good intentioned. And don't try and say you aren't anti-Semitic, you obviously are. If you weren't, you wouldn't have even brought his jewish-ness up.
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Are you implying that people would actually read books?
They would know about politics if they did.
80% of this thread is just confusion.
Could people stop praising capitalism when it works only for the 3 richest poles of the world too? Of course it gets them rich, that's the whole point of capitalism. There are some pretty shitty capitalists country as well as autocracies. Capitalism doesn't always work, but apparently it seems to work more or less in some places. History has proved that communism doesn't always work, that doesn't mean it will never work.
Besides saying communism is an utopia is obvious, capitalism is an utopia as well, ideologies embody utopias. They're applied and adapted to a social context to try and make them work. Maybe it's just that nobody has found a way to make communism work as of today.
Stop spitting on things you don't know about, I don't support communism personally; And I can say that because I know exactly what I'm talking about (and it's not hard knowing, just read a few ~~books~~), instead of throwing shit like "those shitheads who want to establish global califate for allah and crush the old order"
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