1. Post #81
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    April 2008
    5,108 Posts
    Chivalry has degraded so much that nowadays people just attribute it to door opening. There is much more to it, although thisispain vehemently asserted that most if not all interactions in older times where sexist in nature. I still maintain that true chivalry had nothing to do with sexism but is more the paradigm of our male-female interactions. The female - willing or unwilling was often considered that to be protected and cherished. Discomfort and danger was something men were made to do. This included the giving of coats, the direct causing of personal discomfort for the benefit of the woman and the general sacrifices of putting the woman first. Nowadays people think of chivalry as a bleeding heart tactic for the 'nice' guys to use, even though almost nobody truly upholds it in every sense. It is a social construct that has kept us together as a biological social group, it is dying out now and I for one hope that people start realizing its importance and place in the world.

    Finally, thisispain, I appreciate your disagreeing with me, but next time could you be a bit more respectful. You speculate on the experience of another more than you analyze their argument. Although admittedly' my previous comment was poorly constructed, I would appreciate if you didnt treat me like I am some prepubescent child talking out of his ass. I'm not all knowing but I know some.

  2. Post #82
    Gold Member
    DuncanFrost's Avatar
    August 2007
    13,888 Posts
    It is a social construct that has kept us together as a biological social group, it is dying out now and I for one hope that people start realizing its importance and place in the world.
    no it didn't, basic human civility and altruism did. chivalry has nothing to do with the social cohesion of society.

  3. Post #83

    August 2011
    772 Posts
    opening a door isn't going to get you into anyone's pants.
    Actually, I have a story about this one time...

  4. Post #84
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    it is dying out now and I for one hope that people start realizing its importance and place in the world.
    you haven't really explained why i should care and not consider it disappearing a great thing...

    Finally, thisispain, I appreciate your disagreeing with me, but next time could you be a bit more respectful. You speculate on the experience of another more than you analyze their argument. Although admittedly' my previous comment was poorly constructed, I would appreciate if you didnt treat me like I am some prepubescent child talking out of his ass. I'm not all knowing but I know some.
    i don't respect people who don't respect women heheh

  5. Post #85
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    April 2008
    5,108 Posts
    you haven't really explained why i should care and not consider it disappearing a great thing...



    i don't respect people who don't respect women heheh
    I do respect women, I think they're great and capable of many things that even men cant do. All I am saying is that the traditional role of chivalrous man and delicate woman is something really more tied into sexuality and societal relations than anything. Watch any sort of passionate dance including tango or the salsa and you will see what I mean by chivalry and the role of man being tied into sexuality and relation. I believe that without this relative sense between men and women sexuality would divulge into just a pursuit of pleasure rather than the proverbial cat and mouse. While this may not necessarily apply to homosexual couples, even a lot of them contain this relative tendency to have one figure be the protector and one be the gentler caring figure.

  6. Post #86
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    what's wrong with a "pursuit of pleasure"?

  7. Post #87
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    Watch any sort of passionate dance including tango or the salsa and you will see what I mean by chivalry and the role of man being tied into sexuality and relation.
    Yes, that is behavior influenced by social and cultural factors. Why exactly do we need it?

    I believe that without this relative sense between men and women sexuality would divulge into just a pursuit of pleasure rather than the proverbial cat and mouse.
    How is this bad?

  8. Post #88
    Impact1986's Avatar
    December 2011
    1,003 Posts
    I believe that without this relative sense between men and women sexuality would divulge into just a pursuit of pleasure rather than the proverbial cat and mouse.
    Do you have any hobbies? Any favourite meal? Any favourite type of sport?

    Tell me, why do you have especially this kind of of hobby or meal? The answer is because you feel pleasure by doing it. Many attributes of human life boil down to have a pleasurable feeling. Or not have pain.

    The strife for personal success invented many technological developements, be it flying machines, automobiles or the Windows Operating System.

    So why is this bad according to you?

  9. Post #89
    Gold Member
    carcarcargo's Avatar
    October 2007
    14,787 Posts
    Do you have any hobbies? Any favourite meal? Any favourite type of sport?

    Tell me, why do you have especially this kind of of hobby or meal? The answer is because you feel pleasure by doing it. Many attributes of human life boil down to have a pleasurable feeling. Or not have pain.

    The strife for personal success invented many technological developements, be it flying machines, automobiles or the Windows Operating System.

    So why is this bad according to you?
    It's not inherently bad, it just doesn't make the person a good person either.

  10. Post #90
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    April 2008
    5,108 Posts
    If all of life were the pursuit of pleasure over wholesome happiness, much of society would degenerate into a Babylon like archetype where everything is a means to the end of pleasure. I personally just believe in the man's traditional role that we have held in our species since we crawled out of a cave.
    It is not so much the assigning of the disposable role to the man, but the idea that in a succesful relationship you cant have 2 rocks or 2 pussys (in the figurative sense) there will always be balance with one being the softer and one being the rock. It just seems to me to be a classic paradigm that should not be cast away as if it were the same as witch hunting.

  11. Post #91
    MEGA SENPAI KAWAII UGUU~~ =^_^=
    Megafan's Avatar
    September 2008
    14,605 Posts
    If all of life were the pursuit of pleasure over wholesome happiness, much of society would degenerate into a Babylon like archetype where everything is a means to the end of pleasure.
    It sounds like you're using complex words without understanding what they mean.

  12. Post #92
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    April 2008
    5,108 Posts
    It sounds like you're using complex words without understanding what they mean.
    Name one I used improperly

  13. Post #93
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    I personally just believe in the man's traditional role that we have held in our species since we crawled out of a cave.
    uh hunter/gatherer societies were mostly egalitarian.

    It is not so much the assigning of the disposable role to the man, but the idea that in a succesful relationship you cant have 2 rocks or 2 pussys (in the figurative sense) there will always be balance with one being the softer and one being the rock. It just seems to me to be a classic paradigm that should not be cast away as if it were the same as witch hunting.
    what you said doesn't even make any sense.
    i'm in a "successful relationship" and neither of us are "rocks" or "pussies". that's so amazingly crass and it speaks quite frankly to your inexperience.

    exactly how old are you?

  14. Post #94
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    Name one I used improperly
    What exactly is the "pursuit of pleasure over wholesome happiness" supposed to mean?

  15. Post #95
    Gold Member
    xXDictatorXx's Avatar
    December 2007
    1,609 Posts
    If all of life were the pursuit of pleasure over wholesome happiness, much of society would degenerate into a Babylon like archetype where everything is a means to the end of pleasure. I personally just believe in the man's traditional role that we have held in our species since we crawled out of a cave.
    It is not so much the assigning of the disposable role to the man, but the idea that in a succesful relationship you cant have 2 rocks or 2 pussys (in the figurative sense) there will always be balance with one being the softer and one being the rock. It just seems to me to be a classic paradigm that should not be cast away as if it were the same as witch hunting.
    I don't know who is the rock and who is the pussy in my relationship, we're still doing fine, it's almost been a year since we moved in together.

  16. Post #96
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    i thought it was some kind of anti-gay slur

  17. Post #97
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    April 2008
    5,108 Posts
    What exactly is the "pursuit of pleasure over wholesome happiness" supposed to mean?
    Basically the pursuit of carnal pleasure such as sex becoming the main reason for relationship. This may start to overshadow the wholesome (Other than sex) parts of a relationship which inspire true happiness instead of immediate sexual satisfaction. That isnt to say sex has no part in the matter, but the courting and gentlemanly restraint is better than immediate lust.

  18. Post #98
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    February 2007
    13,126 Posts
    You know, I have literally never heard a feminist list "ill-begotten and harmful chivalry customs" as scourge that the patriarchy causes. They only seem to bring it up in response to criticism of bias. In all other cases, they only care about things that uniquely oppress women. Not that that isn't something that needs to be addressed, but it's kind of hard to take the definition that feminists tout seriously while they behave like this.
    This is pretty much why I don't call myself a feminist despite wanting equality between genders, ethnicity and sexualities.

    It's all centered around fixing the problems inequality causes women, but none of the problems inequality causes for men. It's never about making female dominant workspaces to be more accepting of males, it's not about the raising of our children to think they have to behave a certain way because of their gender, it's not about a man's rights in a custody battle or an unplanned pregnancy, it's not about treating men's achievements equal to those of women, it's not about female on male domestic abuse being taken less serious, and it's not about how we represent a man and a woman's worth as victims.

    I keep getting the feel that feminism wants to fix every scenario where a woman has less rights than a man, but do nothing about the scenarios where a man has less rights than a woman.

  19. Post #99
    Gold Member
    SigmaLambda's Avatar
    March 2006
    6,428 Posts
    This is pretty much why I don't call myself a feminist despite wanting equality between genders, ethnicity and sexualities.

    It's all centered around fixing the problems inequality causes women, but none of the problems inequality causes for men. It's never about making female dominant workspaces to be more accepting of males, it's not about the raising of our children to think they have to behave a certain way because of their gender, it's not about a man's rights in a custody battle or an unplanned pregnancy, it's not about treating men's achievements equal to those of women, it's not about female on male domestic abuse being taken less serious, and it's not about how we represent a man and a woman's worth as victims.
    except feminism actually is about all those things.

    feminism is the belief in the sexes being equal, but it is called feminism because both historically and currently women are the primarily disadvantaged group.

  20. Post #100
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    February 2007
    13,126 Posts
    except feminism actually is about all those things.

    feminism is the belief in the sexes being equal, but it is called feminism because both historically and currently women are the primarily disadvantaged group.
    Eh, that's certainly not the message they send out. From having spent 3 years as a male minority of a class with 20 girls, 3 guys, and plenty of feminist teachers, it's a mere wonder that I managed to retain my view that women deserves more equal treatment. If what you're saying is true, they certainly not doing a very good job with education and the media to spread the message that they're not just focusing on women.

  21. Post #101
    Gold Member
    SigmaLambda's Avatar
    March 2006
    6,428 Posts
    Eh, that's certainly not the message they send out. From having spent 3 years as a male minority of a class with 20 girls, 3 guys, and plenty of feminist teachers, it's a mere wonder that I managed to retain my view that women deserves more equal treatment. If what you're saying is true, they certainly not doing a very good job with education and the media to spread the message that they're not just focusing on women.
    you ever think that maybe you were just misreading what they were saying?

    besides that, don't characterize your experience with a few individuals as "the message that they (the entirety of feminists) send out" because that's fallacious

  22. Post #102
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    February 2007
    13,126 Posts
    you ever think that maybe you were just misreading what they were saying?
    I don't think I was misreading what they were saying. It's always "women are the victims, men are the culprits", "men have the advantage over women and are physically stronger, but women are more able and therefor stronger than men", "men do not have as much feelings as women and are a lot more insensitive", "men are obsessed with sex while girls like love", "domestic abuse from a man is a lot worse than from a woman because men are physically stronger". That's what people think feminism is about, and that's the message feminism in media sends out. It might not be the true purpose of it all, but it's the message people receive and that some people actually believe in.

    besides that, don't characterize your experience with a few individuals as "the message that they (the entirety of feminists) send out" because that's fallacious
    People need to get over the idea that only a few people act this way. Good rational feminists working for actual equality and understanding the real message of feminism is fucking RARE. I have not come across many what so ever, it's not the kind of thing they debate about in the newspapers or the things they press on in politics. Feminism is a confused caricature of what it might once have been.

    Edited:

    Someone should make a new feminist group of people that actually understand what the fuck "equality" is supposed to mean, and while they're at it they should change the name from "feminist" to something more gender-neutral. Then, why fucking stop at gender discrimination? Why not fucking equality between genders, ethnicities, and sexualities? Is there a general fucking equality group? If it exists, why the fuck do we have feminism, if it does not exist, why the fuck not?

  23. Post #103
    Gold Member
    Seith's Avatar
    August 2006
    3,279 Posts
    uh hunter/gatherer societies were mostly egalitarian.



    what you said doesn't even make any sense.
    i'm in a "successful relationship" and neither of us are "rocks" or "pussies". that's so amazingly crass and it speaks quite frankly to your inexperience.

    exactly how old are you?
    Oh really? Neither of you? Let's take a very uncomfortable situation for most men for a second to demonstrate how that isn't possible; Your girlfriend, wife, is offering to fuck you in the ass with a dildo. Yes or no?

    Edited:

    I don't think I was misreading what they were saying. It's always "women are the victims, men are the culprits", "men have the advantage over women and are physically stronger, but women are more able and therefor stronger than men", "men do not have as much feelings as women and are a lot more insensitive", "men are obsessed with sex while girls like love", "domestic abuse from a man is a lot worse than from a woman because men are physically stronger". That's what people think feminism is about, and that's the message feminism in media sends out. It might not be the true purpose of it all, but it's the message people receive and that some people actually believe in.


    People need to get over the idea that only a few people act this way. Good rational feminists working for actual equality and understanding the real message of feminism is fucking RARE. I have not come across many what so ever, it's not the kind of thing they debate about in the newspapers or the things they press on in politics. Feminism is a confused caricature of what it might once have been.

    Edited:

    Someone should make a new feminist group of people that actually understand what the fuck "equality" is supposed to mean, and while they're at it they should change the name from "feminist" to something more gender-neutral. Then, why fucking stop at gender discrimination? Why not fucking equality between genders, ethnicities, and sexualities? Is there a general fucking equality group? If it exists, why the fuck do we have feminism, if it does not exist, why the fuck not?
    I agree completely my friend. True feminists are scarce and so is the understanding of what "feminism" truly means.

  24. Post #104
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    Oh really? Neither of you? Let's take a very uncomfortable situation for most men for a second to demonstrate how that isn't possible; Your girlfriend, wife, is offering to fuck you in the ass with a dildo. Yes or no?
    what does that have to do with anything?
    but for the record i'm willing to try anything once.

    Edited:

    If it exists, why the fuck do we have feminism, if it does not exist, why the fuck not?
    ugh
    the point of feminism is female empowerment.
    you pretend as if it's some kind of occupation and you can't be a feminist and against racism or something.

    and the general equality group you are looking for is called Leftism. extend that philosophy to the economic concepts and you're a socialist.

  25. Post #105
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    February 2007
    13,126 Posts
    the point of feminism is female empowerment.
    Then fuck it. I'd rather support equality.

    Edited:

    I want to create an Epicurean group.
    Fuck communism, fuck capitalism, fuck socialism, I want goddamn Epicurealism.
    It's the only philosophy thing that makes complete sense in every possible way.

  26. Post #106
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    okay
    so what does this have to do with feminism again?

  27. Post #107
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    February 2007
    13,126 Posts
    okay
    so what does this have to do with feminism again?
    Equality, the thing modern feminism has forgotten all about.

  28. Post #108
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    Equality, the thing modern feminism has forgotten all about.
    modern feminism is a back-lash towards old feminism.
    i'd suggest you actually read some feminist literature before declaring shit like that.

  29. Post #109
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    February 2007
    13,126 Posts
    modern feminism is a back-lash towards old feminism.
    i'd suggest you actually read some feminist literature before declaring shit like that.
    I'd rather read the whole Twilight series.

  30. Post #110
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    I'd rather read the whole Twilight series.
    okay well obviously not knowing what the fuck you are talking about doesn't bother you but don't expect anyone, including me, to take your criticisms seriously.

  31. Post #111
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    February 2007
    13,126 Posts
    okay well obviously not knowing what the fuck you are talking about doesn't bother you but don't expect anyone, including me, to take your criticisms seriously.
    My message is that they're not doing a good job at portraying themselves as a group working for equality between men and women rather than a group working for equality for women and women alone. Your idea that I need to read their literature to understand what the fuck they're trying to do is not helping whatever point you're trying to make. If their literature is anything like the feminism I've come to know, then I would not be caught dead reading it.

    Considering how cynically you usually post I don't take you too serious either way.

  32. Post #112
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    September 2009
    3,006 Posts
    Feminism was started with the belief that women are, at least on an intellectual level, equal to men, which is a wholly good thing.

    The feminist protest and revolts of the last century women have led to women becoming equal to men on nearly every law in the developed world, in some cases, they actually get a far better standing (E.G. Custody laws).

    However, when feminists achieved this goal, they also made men out to be inherently evil, to the point where in today's society, we see women as the abused, and men as the abuser.

    This leads to, that when the opposite is true, (e.g. a woman rapes a man) we (the majority of the developed world) see it as justice, rather than a crime.

  33. Post #113
    LCBADs's Avatar
    March 2009
    1,775 Posts
    My message is that they're not doing a good job at portraying themselves as a group working for equality between men and women rather than a group working for equality for women and women alone. Your idea that I need to read their literature to understand what the fuck they're trying to do is not helping whatever point you're trying to make. If their literature is anything like the feminism I've come to know, then I would not be caught dead reading it.

    Considering how cynically you usually post I don't take you too serious either way.
    now you're just being obstinate

  34. Post #114
    Gundevil's Avatar
    April 2009
    502 Posts
    Women deserve all the opportunities men do, women deserve to be allowed to vote, hold public office, acheive high levels of success but should also be made to try as hard as men.

    I'm sorry, but I want the firefighter or police officer to be able to actually help me when I am in need, move the car part, piece of fallen wood, whatever off of me. To lower entry requirements just for the benefit of women is ridiculous, keep everything at an even level when you preach equality.

    Also, if women can set up women only clubs, groups, scholarships and such, then so should men.

  35. Post #115
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    My message is that they're not doing a good job at portraying themselves as a group working for equality between men and women rather than a group working for equality for women and women alone. Your idea that I need to read their literature to understand what the fuck they're trying to do is not helping whatever point you're trying to make. If their literature is anything like the feminism I've come to know, then I would not be caught dead reading it.
    my point is that your understanding of feminism is zero unless you actually read and try to understand what the point behind it is.

    it's not their fucking job to advertise and educate you on feminist goals, that's your job. and of course the media is going to portray them negatively, feminism is perceived as a threat towards the establishment.

    Considering how cynically you usually post I don't take you too serious either way.
    accusing me of cynicism then declaring that all feminists must think alike without reading their writings?
    you're just fucking with me now aren't you?

    feminism isn't a single ideology anymore in any case, it's now just a line of theory relating to female empowerment.

  36. Post #116
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    February 2007
    13,126 Posts
    now you're just being obstinate
    I'm always willing to change my opinion if my opponent is convincing enough, just generally acting like a cunt and telling me that I'm uneducated without giving me the facts to why I'm supposedly wrong is not going to change my opinion.

  37. Post #117
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    Also, if women can set up women only clubs, groups, scholarships and such, then so should men.
    these groups, clubs, or scholarships are set up as a response to female exclusion.

    there would be no need to have women-only clubs or groups if women were allowed to participate in everything men are allowed to participate in.
    the same concept applies to black scholarships and groups.

  38. Post #118
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    February 2007
    13,126 Posts
    my point is that your understanding of feminism is zero unless you actually read and try to understand what the point behind it is.

    it's not their fucking job to advertise and educate you on feminist goals, that's your job. and of course the media is going to portray them negatively, feminism is perceived as a threat towards the establishment.



    accusing me of cynicism then declaring that all feminists must think alike without reading their writings?
    you're just fucking with me now aren't you?

    feminism isn't a single ideology anymore in any case, it's now just a line of theory relating to female empowerment.
    Either way you haven't read my other posts in this thread and is just targeting that specific one if you think I'm talking about all feminists, so I'm going to just ignore the rest of your post for now since I don't feel like reading your posts if you won't read mine.

  39. Post #119
    Awesome Member
    Dennab
    January 2006
    40,352 Posts
    I'm always willing to change my opinion if my opponent is convincing enough, just generally acting like a cunt and telling me that I'm uneducated without giving me the facts to why I'm supposedly wrong is not going to change my opinion.
    uh
    you yourself admitted that you didn't read any feminist literature.
    does that mean i'm not allowed to call into question exactly how much you know?
    considering most of your arguments have been based on a strawman (ahem strawwoman) of what a feminist is supposed to be, i think i'm right for doing so.

  40. Post #120
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    February 2007
    13,126 Posts
    Really though, you're ALWAYS insanely aggressive every time I see you argue something. Not just in this thread, but in other debate threads, and in the sensationalist headlines section.
    I generally don't like reading your posts due to how it feels like hanging out with someone from the gestapo.