1. Post #161
    Lilyo's Avatar
    October 2011
    2,294 Posts
    As Angy Atheist knows, its really annoying being preached at. Yet, whenever i go on Reddit or other sites, its consistently atheists baahing theists saying they believe in "fairy tales." Yet, any mature person can accept anothers' beliefs, and its childish to think otherwise. The basis of any morality, religious or not, is to treat others as they want themselves treated.
    Why would "any mature person accept another's beliefs"? That's a pretty childish way of going about doing things isn't it? Sure, I can accept your decision towards having your own beliefs, but why would I have to be content with accepting your beliefs? That's quite absurd. If you believe that a giant man in the sky created the universe and everything in it and that he's responsible for all the good and bad things in the world and that he listens to your thoughts and gives you strength to persevere through hard times, and I believe something different than it would be pretty silly of me to simply say "oh ok, i might have a different belief than you but yours are just as dandy, have a great day and btw don't hate me cause I have different beliefs than you".

    How would we ever progress as a civilization if we don't accept debating each other? If my beliefs are different than yours and you genuinely think that your beliefs hold meaning over mine then I would expect you to fight for those beliefs, not just go about your life and ignore all debate... "Don't openly question other people's beliefs or bring up debates in hopes of the other person doing the same" is just an ignorant way of thinking about things. I want you to debate my beliefs. I'm not content with sitting idle just because you feel your beliefs are too personal to be worth debating, as if religious beliefs are any more important or prominent than something such as politics. Religion should never be given a free pass over debate or criticism.
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  2. Post #162
    Gold Member
    Kman1's Avatar
    April 2009
    3,866 Posts
    You cant debate religion or lackthereof. Its a waste of time. Unless either side has any proof, which does not exist than it is a waste. And I meant we should accept eachother's choice of beliefs. I meant to say I can be religious/atheist whithout anyone telling me I'm wrong. Sorry for the ambiguity.
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  3. Post #163
    Gold Member

    May 2005
    2,268 Posts
    As far as respecting religion goes, I've said many times I don't need to respect someone's beliefs that involve me going to hell because I don't share their views. I think everyone should have the right to think what they want, but that doesn't mean I need to respect what you think.

    I think there's nothing wrong with debating religion in the right time and place. Honestly I even get tired of places like r/atheism, where you see some Facebook post of someone saying "god bless your heart" or something, followed by someone going on a 2000 word rant about the horrors of religion, which no one is even going to read.
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  4. Post #164
    Gold Member
    Kman1's Avatar
    April 2009
    3,866 Posts
    Yeah, I like debate, and that's fine. I think its stupid, intolerant and ignorant to tell an atheist they're going to Hell, or to tell a theist they are deluded or believe on fairy tales.
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  5. Post #165
    imasillypiggy's Avatar
    December 2009
    8,851 Posts
    You cant debate religion or lackthereof. Its a waste of time. Unless either side has any proof, which does not exist than it is a waste. And I meant we should accept eachother's choice of beliefs. I meant to say I can be religious/atheist whithout anyone telling me I'm wrong. Sorry for the ambiguity.
    I disagree. Of course you shouldn't bother someone who doesn't want to debate but your no one is going to change sides argument could be applied to almost all arguments. Also In an argument like this its not which side has the more proof its more of if the claimer (in this case the religious person) has enough proof instead of both sides needing proof.
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  6. Post #166
    Zambies!'s Avatar
    August 2009
    8,151 Posts
    Facepunch is hard on Christianity as a whole, which is retarded.
    Facepunch paints fundies with the same brush, as noble as that sounds, it's retarded.
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  7. Post #167
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    6,496 Posts
    I can't recall the last time I have seen someone paint a 'fundie', would you kindly elaborate?
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  8. Post #168
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    You cant debate religion or lackthereof. Its a waste of time. Unless either side has any proof, which does not exist than it is a waste. And I meant we should accept eachother's choice of beliefs. I meant to say I can be religious/atheist whithout anyone telling me I'm wrong. Sorry for the ambiguity.
    A hypothesis without a basis is automatically incorrect until proven.
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  9. Post #169
    Gold Member
    kaine123's Avatar
    February 2010
    9,263 Posts
    I feel that a lot of Facepunchers are unaware of the fact that it's OK for people to hold different ideas than them.
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  10. Post #170
    Wet Birds
    Levithan's Avatar
    September 2005
    7,969 Posts
    I can't recall the last time I have seen someone paint a 'fundie', would you kindly elaborate?
    http://www.fstdt.com/FAQ.aspx#Fundie posted:
    Fundie

    1. A usually religious person or entity characterized by one or more of the following: an extreme lack of rationality, fondness of logical fallacies, repeated use of emotional appeals, rigid adherence to Bronze Age mythology, endorsement of pseudoscientific nonsense, opposition to the First Amendment, bigotry and discriminatory attitudes towards minority groups, belief that certain children's media is the work of Satan, and propensity to post Bible verses instead of valid argument.

    It should be noted that one can be religious--even a fundamentalist--but not actually attain the vaunted status of "fundie," which needs that special touch only people fitting stereotypical caricatures can provide. Additionally, religion is technically not even a pre-requisite for this, although blind adherence to its ideologies (and those of politics) is perhaps the #1 source of fundies in the universe. Rigid, arrogant, "know-it-all-and-confidently-force-it-on-everyone-else" authoritarian strains of both amplify the propensity to fundyism, while more moderate, "this-seems-like-a-good-idea-but-might-be-wrong, so-let's-not-be-total-jackasses-about-it" varieties can keep it in check or even undermine it.
    if I'm understanding your question right
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  11. Post #171
    I make sexist and racist jokes all the time yet,i still support the feminist movement and the rights of blacks.
    znk666's Avatar
    July 2010
    5,535 Posts
    I feel that a lot of Facepunchers are unaware of the fact that it's OK for people to hold different ideas than them.
    Who says otherwise?
    You're free to believe whatever you wish as long as you don't put it into practice.
    Whether it's influence over media or restricting certain people's rights just because this book i have here states we should.
    We,at least i always refer to religion as a whole and most certainly as a rational and moral person oppose it's ideologies,morals and it's effects on humanity as a whole.
    As Steven Weinberg said: “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”
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  12. Post #172
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    6,496 Posts
    if I'm understanding your question right
    Oh, I thought it was a typo. I still don't understand what he's trying to say though.
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  13. Post #173
    Gold Member
    Cone's Avatar
    August 2011
    18,646 Posts
    As Steven Weinberg said: “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”
    Except Religion isn't the only thing that can do that. Any situation in which one could do the "wrong thing for the right reasons" is the same.

    Take for example protection of people as a whole. If it seems that someone is about to stab someone else, you would logically try to save that person whether they are actually about to get stabbed or not. Religion is effectively the same; it's just saving people from what is perceived to be danger or harm.

    It's not bad people doing bad things, good people doing good things, or even any mix of the two; it's people doing things in general because, as I often say, everyone has their reasons.
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  14. Post #174
    Gold Member
    Crimor's Avatar
    June 2008
    10,362 Posts
    I respect other peoples religion, I do a prayer out of respect if a visit a church or mosque, etc. But if you insult me being atheist, I'll show you the fires of hell myself.
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  15. Post #175
    Not that bad of a seed
    asteroidrules's Avatar
    January 2011
    10,453 Posts
    When this debate ends the answer will be no, but as long as this thread keeps going then yes, most definitely.
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  16. Post #176
    Gold Member
    nask's Avatar
    July 2006
    372 Posts
    When this debate ends the answer will be no, but as long as this thread keeps going then yes, most definitely.
    So, we can't debate about religion? It is debate proof concept?
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  17. Post #177
    Tuba Player Extraordinaire
    Funcoot's Avatar
    January 2006
    3,592 Posts
    Man FUCK religion. It is used to control the masses and there is no proof that god exists man. Religion is used for peasants who were not able to reason between their son and a stalk of corn. So they invented it to control them and put them in fear of a "superior" being called god. Most of the stuff the bible even says is either contradictory or false.
    And in response to the teenager thing, many teenagers nowadays are able to reason much more and have their own voice. They have the ability to "speak against the man" and they are not afraid to, as you may have been 30 years ago. Schools teach students to use reason, which you may not have in the past so how bout you go fuck yourself and learn how to use your logic that "god(nonexistant)" gave to you. BITCH.

    Edited:

    Why should something be respected if it is not true and could possibly be a lie? All that we can tell for sure about religion is that it "steals" our money by forcing us to donate or else god will not love us. Look at the mormon church i believe it is approximately 10% of your income must go to the church. What a waste of money!
    Yeah man, teen angst! Too bad 90% of what you just said isn't true. Religion wasn't used for peasants or mind control... that idea is just stupid. People may have used it to manipulate people before, but in general this does not cover religion. There are SOME contradictions in the new testament itself. Most people point out contradiction between the Torah and the New testament. A lot of people don't know that the Old Testament is actually parts of the Torah. The laws from the Torah do not apply to Christians, God said so himself.

    Also, Christianity, Mormanism included, does not require you to go 10% of your income, it is just a tradition that people choose to take part in. You are not frowned upon for not doing it. Some people choose to do it because that it has biblical roots. No one was ever forced to then or now.

    And I understand that some people don't believe in God and I understand why. I'm not arguing with you on this.

    And I also know you are addressing religion in general, but being an American teenager and bringing up Christianity, that is probably the basis for your rant.
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  18. Post #178
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    Yeah man, teen angst! Too bad 90% of what you just said isn't true. Religion wasn't used for peasants or mind control... that idea is just stupid. People may have used it to manipulate people before, but in general this does not cover religion. There are SOME contradictions in the new testament itself. Most people point out contradiction between the Torah and the New testament. A lot of people don't know that the Old Testament is actually parts of the Torah. The laws from the Torah do not apply to Christians, God said so himself.

    Also, Christianity, Mormanism included, does not require you to go 10% of your income, it is just a tradition that people choose to take part in. You are not frowned upon for not doing it. Some people choose to do it because that it has biblical roots. No one was ever forced to then or now.

    And I understand that some people don't believe in God and I understand why. I'm not arguing with you on this.

    And I also know you are addressing religion in general, but being an American teenager and bringing up Christianity, that is probably the basis for your rant.
    90% of what you just said is wrong, or just the negative of what he just said. It's quite clear religion is a tool used to control the masses, and nothing more. How you evolve the concept in your own mind has fuck all to do with the original concept.
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  19. Post #179
    imasillypiggy's Avatar
    December 2009
    8,851 Posts
    90% of what you just said is wrong, or just the negative of what he just said. It's quite clear religion is a tool used to control the masses, and nothing more. How you evolve the concept in your own mind has fuck all to do with the original concept.
    By control the masses I hope you aren't saying its some conspiracy made just for the sake of control. The people at the head of a religion (most anyways) do believe in what they are preaching and only a small amount are actually using it for personal gain.
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  20. Post #180
    Tuba Player Extraordinaire
    Funcoot's Avatar
    January 2006
    3,592 Posts
    90% of what you just said is wrong, or just the negative of what he just said. It's quite clear religion is a tool used to control the masses, and nothing more. How you evolve the concept in your own mind has fuck all to do with the original concept.
    I made two points, one of which you disagreed with. That would be 50%.

    Like I said. People have used it to control people before, I am not arguing with that, but that was not the purpose of religion. Do research. Many of the authors of holy texts believed they were having encounters with God, when they were actually just hallucinating. In many of these cases, from going days without eating, sleeping, and even hallucinatory substances. The idea that religion was created solely to control the masses doesn't make sense. At the time, large armies controlled the masses. The people and the church were at the mercy of kings. Kings controlled doctrine. Religion started out innocently, trying to answer a question that existed since the dawn of man, and quickly spiraled downward at the hands of wicked men.

    Religion when it was created is not as it is today and it is not used as a device of control today. It was used as such for a brief period in history.
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  21. Post #181
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    June 2009
    6,496 Posts
    90% of what you just said is wrong, or just the negative of what he just said. It's quite clear religion is a tool used to control the masses, and nothing more. How you evolve the concept in your own mind has fuck all to do with the original concept.
    Christians were hunted down for the first 300 years of Christianity's existence and were considered a cult until Rome adopted Christianity as its official faith, doesn't seem to me like it was invented purely for world domination but I guess it was since you cited all of your sources and your argument is airtight.
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  22. Post #182
    Fight for justice, fight for Manning and Snowden.
    Persious's Avatar
    April 2010
    2,547 Posts
    I'm a christian, and as of now, I never judge people by their meanings, but sadly it usually goes to flaming on Facepunch. Being called a idiot, fucker, dumbass or what not doesn't realy mean anything to me.
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  23. Post #183
    Gold Member
    Upgrade123's Avatar
    January 2008
    5,478 Posts
    Some people in this thread disappoint me.
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  24. Post #184
    Gold Member
    PvtCupcakes's Avatar
    May 2008
    10,900 Posts
    Religions should be treated just like any other false information.
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  25. Post #185
    Sickle's Avatar
    November 2009
    6,600 Posts
    By control the masses I hope you aren't saying its some conspiracy made just for the sake of control. The people at the head of a religion (most anyways) do believe in what they are preaching and only a small amount are actually using it for personal gain.
    It is a conspiracy made for the sake of control and the head people in the religions don't believe in the shit they preach and use it for personal gain all of the time.

    Edited:

    I made two points, one of which you disagreed with. That would be 50%.

    Religion when it was created is not as it is today and it is not used as a device of control today. It was used as such for a brief period in history.
    It would be 45%. It was created to allow for an easier method of subverting masses and attacking other kingdoms. The end. It has no 'spiritual' value what so ever. It is an amazing means of keeping stupid people under your control.
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  26. Post #186
    Gold Member
    PvtCupcakes's Avatar
    May 2008
    10,900 Posts
    It is a conspiracy made for the sake of control and the head people in the religions don't believe in the shit they preach and use it for personal gain all of the time.
    Yeah I think you could say jackoffs like Jerry Falwell were in it for the money.

    I think most other people like the Pope are just delusional.
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  27. Post #187
    Gold Member
    Crimor's Avatar
    June 2008
    10,362 Posts
    I'm a christian, and as of now, I never judge people by their meanings, but sadly it usually goes to flaming on Facepunch. Being called a idiot, fucker, dumbass or what not doesn't realy mean anything to me.
    You're given me no reason to not respect you so we bros
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  28. Post #188
    USER HAS BEEN DISCONNECTED FROM REALITY - RETRY CONNECTION IN 5 MINUTES
    Dennab
    February 2006
    22,239 Posts
    As far as respecting religion goes, I've said many times I don't need to respect someone's beliefs that involve me going to hell because I don't share their views. I think everyone should have the right to think what they want, but that doesn't mean I need to respect what you think.

    I think there's nothing wrong with debating religion in the right time and place. Honestly I even get tired of places like r/atheism, where you see some Facebook post of someone saying "god bless your heart" or something, followed by someone going on a 2000 word rant about the horrors of religion, which no one is even going to read.
    I think when you take the route of debate and intelligent discussion, a certain level of compassion needs to be used. The point of a debate is to expose the person to new ways of thinking, and to be exposed yourself. You can't do this when you come from a place of hostility.

    You have to remember that people see the world differently than you. If you want someone to come to your line of thinking, you have to expose them to it in a non-hostile fashion. You must also be ready to put on the shoes of the person you are debating and try to understand how and why they view the world the way they do.

    When atheists come from such a level of hostility where they feel the need to belittle and attack the religious, it causes the religious to become further entrenched in their own views, and close themselves off from other ways of thinking. The reverse is also true. How do you feel, as an atheist, when you hear a pastor condemning you to hell, or George Bush Sr. saying that atheists cannot be patriotic citizens? It certainly makes me angry. In fact it gives me a small amount of hate for the religious in general for having someone so horrible on their side, even if I know that he is just an individual saying something stupid.
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  29. Post #189
    Dennab
    January 2012
    270 Posts
    nope
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  30. Post #190
    Dennab
    April 2010
    5,256 Posts
    No. I don't think so anyway.

    Organized religion is responsible for some of the worst atrocities on mankind, and stopping the human race from progression.

    Where religion falters is when it becomes massive and organized. It should be a private system of belief if anything, when it starts becoming a form of controlling and influencing a population, that's where it starts to slide down the slippery slope.
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  31. Post #191
    sintwins's Avatar
    November 2009
    712 Posts
    It's interesting how people here think that religion was a way of controlling people, however about a thousandish years ago lots of bishops and people in power started using their money to fund universities and research. This made them influential over both science and religion, allowing them to choose who got funding for their research and to shape what was taught to the next generations both religiously and scientifically. However you try to justify it both religion and science, while at their foundations aren't control mechanisms have been used by people in power as such.

    Furthermore it seems that a lot of people in this thread see religion and science as mutually exclusive, but science is only explaining simple observations, it doesn't explain how or why they happen. For example no one knows why the laws of physics etc exist.
    Also science, because of this still cannot explain how the universe came into existence and instead just refer to energy instantaneously appearing and creating the universe, which just seems like an explanation from genesis, just using more up to date terminology.
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  32. Post #192
    ECrownofFire's Avatar
    January 2011
    1,971 Posts
    No. I don't think so anyway.

    Organized religion is responsible for some of the worst atrocities on mankind, and stopping the human race from progression.

    Where religion falters is when it becomes massive and organized. It should be a private system of belief if anything, when it starts becoming a form of controlling and influencing a population, that's where it starts to slide down the slippery slope.
    Hey guess what: People have motivations OTHER than religion to do horrible things!

    And you know what? Some people actually do GOOD things because of religion too!
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  33. Post #193
    Gold Member
    Dennab
    February 2007
    13,126 Posts
    I feel that a lot of Facepunchers are unaware of the fact that it's OK for people to hold different ideas than them.
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You are entitled to your own opinion, and the people around you are entitled to their opinion.
    If you don't want people to share their opinion about your opinion, the only respectful thing to do is to shut the hell up.
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  34. Post #194
    asdfghjkl.
    Erasus's Avatar
    May 2011
    2,099 Posts
    I feel that a lot of Facepunchers are unaware of the fact that it's OK for people to hold different ideas than them.
    Oh dude shut up, just because people have opinions does not mean that we can't dislike those opinions. Sure, people can have them, doesn't mean we like them.
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  35. Post #195
    Ask me about my .gif fetish
    st0rmforce's Avatar
    February 2008
    3,594 Posts
    Oh dude shut up, just because people have opinions does not mean that we can't dislike those opinions. Sure, people can have them, doesn't mean we like them.
    I think I know what he means. I don't think he's talking about people disliking another's views, it's more about not being able to understand the other person's opinion, dismissing it as invalid, or telling them that they should have a different opinion.

    I think he's talking generally, not just about religious discussions. It's the difference between "That's you're opinion, but I disagree" and "You're wrong". You also see this attitude a lot when people discuss anything opinion-based: games, music, films...
    I think that people get so tied up in their own opinion, that they can only understand people agreeing with them or directly opposing them. I also think that some people don't understand that their opinions are just opinions, they think that because the opinion in question is held by a lot of people, that it's actually a fact.
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  36. Post #196
    retarded faggot
    Mateo!'s Avatar
    January 2008
    1,409 Posts
    Why would "any mature person accept another's beliefs"? That's a pretty childish way of going about doing things isn't it? Sure, I can accept your decision towards having your own beliefs, but why would I have to be content with accepting your beliefs? That's quite absurd. If you believe that a giant man in the sky created the universe and everything in it and that he's responsible for all the good and bad things in the world and that he listens to your thoughts and gives you strength to persevere through hard times, and I believe something different than it would be pretty silly of me to simply say "oh ok, i might have a different belief than you but yours are just as dandy, have a great day and btw don't hate me cause I have different beliefs than you".

    How would we ever progress as a civilization if we don't accept debating each other? If my beliefs are different than yours and you genuinely think that your beliefs hold meaning over mine then I would expect you to fight for those beliefs, not just go about your life and ignore all debate... "Don't openly question other people's beliefs or bring up debates in hopes of the other person doing the same" is just an ignorant way of thinking about things. I want you to debate my beliefs. I'm not content with sitting idle just because you feel your beliefs are too personal to be worth debating, as if religious beliefs are any more important or prominent than something such as politics. Religion should never be given a free pass over debate or criticism.
    Have you ever tried arguing with a radical Christian?

    It never ends in compromise, it will either end with them walking away muttering about how damned you are or you walking away while they smile triumphantly and scream JESUS LOVES YOU. There is no debate in religions. Neither can prove their point, and neither can convince the others otherwise. It becomes a shit storm on whatever outlet it's hosted on and mostly serves to piss people off.

    That's why I just accept the fact that I can't make a difference and let them live in their bubble. If I debate it, it's just going to go around in circles. It's stupid.
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  37. Post #197
    Not that bad of a seed
    asteroidrules's Avatar
    January 2011
    10,453 Posts
    So, we can't debate about religion? It is debate proof concept?
    As long as we're still fighting over it then yes some people are being too hard on it, and some are too zealous about it.
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  38. Post #198
    LCBADs's Avatar
    March 2009
    1,775 Posts
    Have you ever tried arguing with a radical Christian?

    It never ends in compromise, it will either end with them walking away muttering about how damned you are or you walking away while they smile triumphantly and scream JESUS LOVES YOU. There is no debate in religions. Neither can prove their point, and neither can convince the others otherwise. It becomes a shit storm on whatever outlet it's hosted on and mostly serves to piss people off.

    That's why I just accept the fact that I can't make a difference and let them live in their bubble. If I debate it, it's just going to go around in circles. It's stupid.
    Okay, religious apologists talk about how hardcore, angry, atheists condescend to religious types, this is some fucking condescension right here. Oh, they're simply too stupid and irrational to accept what we have to say. Don't fret their soft little minds. Let them enjoy their delusions, for they are ineffectual, like children. Fuck that noise.
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  39. Post #199
    The Amazing
    DeandreT's Avatar
    April 2009
    4,894 Posts
    The problem with religion is that they can't all be correct and true. People will start wars just to somehow prove that they are the correct ones with a true religion. Science on the other hand attempts to accept all ideas until they can be proven wrong using experiments and complete observation. This is also a flaw with religion. In religion not many things are accepted because everything we would learn and follow would be from some old book or numerous old books in other cases. Therefore any studies or knowledge is probably thousands of years out of date.

    Science is ever-changing and Religion is ever-aging.
    Though debating with any religious person is just a waste of time because you can't prove that their gods don't exist. They can't prove that they do on the other hand.
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  40. Post #200

    November 2011
    17 Posts
    I hate people that force you to believe in something, especially parents. I came from orthodox jewish family and left the house at the age of 16 just because they wanted from me to be disconnected from the rest of the world, from technology, science, drugs, video games etc. I moved in with a guy that I got to know from a metal concert and had to work and study to pay the rent. Since then I havent spoke to my parents (for 4 years now).
    I also have seen the news today and a bunch of muslims ruined today some ancient asian Buddha statue from the 12th century, damn savages.
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