1. Post #1
    Gold Member
    Jimmy422's Avatar
    March 2007
    1,737 Posts
    One of the things I can't stand about my parents' 2008 Ford Fusion is the delay between hitting the gas and actually moving. I can floor the pedal and it takes a good second or two before the car actually moves. It's incredibly annoying, and one of the reasons that I don't want to buy a brand new car. Do they make new cars with mechanical throttles still, or is it just something I'll have to live with in the event that I get a new car?

  2. Post #2
    Gold Member
    Del91's Avatar
    October 2010
    10,341 Posts
    I think the more...Sport...Oriented cars probably might, not super cars or anything like that though.

    Edited:

    Googled it, and probably not.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  3. Post #3
    Gold Member
    TestECull's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,034 Posts
    That lag you're describing is not because of the throttle by wire. Instead, it's because modern engines aren't tuned to have crisp throttle response. My friend had a '95 Mustang V6 that had a cable throttle and the lag was even worse. Ran fine, but the throttle response was, always was, and always will be absolutely abysmal.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows Vista United States Show Events Agree Agree x 2 (list)

  4. Post #4
    Gold Member
    Psygo's Avatar
    July 2007
    4,496 Posts
    i've heard that if you disconnect the battery, and then reconnect it and go for a drive where you let it get some gas, not utterly raping the thing, just a bit fast driving, it will work better.

    however I would not know if this is true.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 Denmark Show Events Funny Funny x 1 (list)

  5. Post #5
    Gold Member
    blackdenton's Avatar
    October 2007
    666 Posts
    Not sure how well it works, but you're not the only one annoyed by it.

    http://www.sprintboostersales.com/

  6. Post #6
    Ask Me About My VW Beetle Fetish
    Ldesu's Avatar
    March 2008
    10,054 Posts
    I drove a Saab not too long ago that had horrible throttle lag.

    It genuinely felt dangerous as fuck because you never knew when it was actually gonna take off

  7. Post #7
    Gold Member
    slayer3032's Avatar
    November 2007
    3,502 Posts
    I've never liked the feeling of it, I couldn't care about the throttle response when you have this stupid linear throttle that doesn't provide much feedback to what the car is doing. All of the drive by wire cars I've driven have a speed creeping problem where it causes almost constant management of your foot to maintain a single speed. Drive by wire allows manufacturers to do some really crazy fancy shit with their engines though, all of the single cam Civics and most of Honda's new motors employ a really cool stuff with this ability.

    http://asia.vtec.net/Engines/RiVTEC/index.html

    It's okay in economy cars but something I want to have a little fun driving needs to have a cable feedback, I've always found there to feel like there is "notches" which you can hold the pedal in place with a cable throttle and use those to maintain a similar speed.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 3 (list)

  8. Post #8
    Gold Member
    Second-gear-of-mgear's Avatar
    June 2009
    6,054 Posts
    That lag you're describing is not because of the throttle by wire. Instead, it's because modern engines aren't tuned to have crisp throttle response. My friend had a '95 Mustang V6 that had a cable throttle and the lag was even worse. Ran fine, but the throttle response was, always was, and always will be absolutely abysmal.

    Are you just against every modern car or something? I've literally never been in a car that has noticeable throttle lag, except for this diesel RAM.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Disagree Disagree x 3 (list)

  9. Post #9
    Fight until death, shoot until empty.

    November 2009
    15,884 Posts
    Ill sell you my 88' Vic that has it.

  10. Post #10
    Gold Member
    Del91's Avatar
    October 2010
    10,341 Posts

    probably listening to nice music on the stereo or engaging in stimulating conversation with our passengers.
    Tee hee

  11. Post #11
    Gold Member
    TestECull's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,034 Posts
    Are you just against every modern car or something?
    No. Why would I be? Some modern cars are fucking awesome.


    I simply stated a fact, which is that modern cars are almost universally tuned for economy, not throttle response, and as such they lag behind the gas pedal regardless of how the pedal moves the throttle blade.

    I've literally never been in a car that has noticeable throttle lag, except for this diesel RAM.
    I've been in several. Fords are pretty bad about it, our '03 Ranger, '97 Explorer, my friend's '95 Mustang, they all did it to varying degrees. The mustang was the worst, you could stomp on the pedal and release it and you'd hear the pedal click against the stop again before the engine reacted at all. Our '96 Chrysler minivan is also really bad about it, and it has a cable on it's throttle. Simple fact is, those engines are not tuned to have super crisp throttle response, so they lag behind the pedal a bit.


    You get used to it.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows Vista United States Show Events Dumb Dumb x 3Disagree Disagree x 1 (list)

  12. Post #12
    Can i have a tital Dav0r?
    Dylan_94's Avatar
    August 2005
    1,904 Posts
    That lag you're describing is not because of the throttle by wire. Instead, it's because modern engines aren't tuned to have crisp throttle response. My friend had a '95 Mustang V6 that had a cable throttle and the lag was even worse. Ran fine, but the throttle response was, always was, and always will be absolutely abysmal.
    My civic from 2004 has instant throttle response. If i were to sit there and tap my gas pedal like a bass drum, it would shake the car violently(in a lower gear, it isn't as violent in high gears because it's bogged down.

  13. Post #13
    Gold Member
    abcpea2's Avatar
    April 2007
    5,665 Posts
    i dont want to get used to it

  14. Post #14
    Gold Member
    TestECull's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,034 Posts
    My civic from 2004 has instant throttle response. If i were to sit there and tap my gas pedal like a bass drum, it would shake the car violently(in a lower gear, it isn't as violent in high gears because it's bogged down.
    I didn't say all cars did it either, now did i? Some manage to have good throttle response despite being tuned for economy instead, as your civic proves.

    Edited:

    i dont want to get used to it
    There isn't really anything you can do about it. That's just how the engine was designed.

  15. Post #15
    Gold Member
    edberg's Avatar
    June 2005
    2,466 Posts
    My car had a ~.5 second delay when it was stock, once I flashed the ECU it feels as fast as any mechanical setup. It's all in the throttle mapping
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Winner Winner x 2Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  16. Post #16
    Streetwise Angel Booksmart Devil
    Grasp's Avatar
    January 2010
    3,044 Posts
    '01 7 Series BMW? No problem,
    '82 Corvette? No problem,
    2003 Dodge Grand Caravan? ABSOLUTE ASS. The car is just slow to respond, and keeps on rolling forever.

  17. Post #17
    Gold Member
    abcpea2's Avatar
    April 2007
    5,665 Posts
    im pretty sure '82 corvettes aren't drive by wire
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 Australia Show Events Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  18. Post #18
    Gold Member
    Disco_Potato's Avatar
    January 2012
    754 Posts
    There is absolutely nothing fundamentally wrong with a drive-by-wire setup, and any amount of "lag" is much too small to have an effect.
    The throttle is controlled by a highly accurate stepper motor with a return spring, which means that it can change position very, very fast and accurately. So the issue does not lie with "lag" in the mechanism, its 100% in the programming.

    Basically, modern EFI systems rely heavily on torque management, in that they have a lookup table representing throttle position vs RPM and how much torque the engine is producing at that point. It uses this with the drive-by-wire system to connect pedal position with torque as opposed to pedal position being directly related to throttle position as with a tradition cable throttle.
    Then, in addition to this, they will also adjust the relationship to compensate for the fact that most people have poor throttle control. This is all in the name on increasing fuel economy.

    The good news is that with a tune you can easily adjust the drive-by-wire systems so that you can get whatever kind of throttle to pedal relationship you want, and it will have the instant feedback just like a cable throttle, possibly even better.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Informative Informative x 7Agree Agree x 2 (list)

  19. Post #19
    Gold Member
    clutch2's Avatar
    May 2005
    1,463 Posts
    ^^^ Yerp. He knows what's up.

    short version:
    The lag is a purposely introduced phenomenon that is supposed to help fuel economy.. smooths out throttle input for the people that do weird pulsing acceleration and so forth.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows XP United States Show Events Agree Agree x 3 (list)

  20. Post #20
    Gold Member
    abcpea2's Avatar
    April 2007
    5,665 Posts
    economy is a dumb reason just take the bus u cunts if i had my way all the cars would be sports cars and u would need to do advanced driver training to get a license
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 Australia Show Events Funny Funny x 7Dumb Dumb x 4Zing Zing x 1 (list)

  21. Post #21
    Gold Member
    TestECull's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,034 Posts
    economy is a dumb reason just take the bus u cunts if i had my way all the cars would be sports cars and u would need to do advanced driver training to get a license

    Wow. Dumbest thing I've seen in this subforum by far.


    The bus does not work for everyone. I live 20 miles from city limits. There is NO public transport out here. None at all. You can call a cab in advance but it takes 40 minutes just to get here from Nashville and the fare is fucking crazy. A sports car would be fun on these roads, sure, that's why I'm buying one anyway, but my pickup is FAR better suited to the area when the weather turns to shit, the salt trucks don't even come this far out and if the roads get plowed at all it's one of the local farmers, and it means I don't have to pay out the nose for appliance delivery.

    Edited:

    ^^^ Yerp. He knows what's up.

    short version:
    The lag is a purposely introduced phenomenon that is supposed to help fuel economy.. smooths out throttle input for the people that do weird pulsing acceleration and so forth.

    Yup. He pretty much said what I said, only he went into detail.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows Vista United States Show Events Dumb Dumb x 2Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  22. Post #22
    Dennab
    December 2009
    1,739 Posts
    ^^^ Yerp. He knows what's up.

    short version:
    The lag is a purposely introduced phenomenon that is supposed to help fuel economy.. smooths out throttle input for the people that do weird pulsing acceleration and so forth.
    So in other words, it's basically dulling cars down even more for idiot drivers. Gotta love it.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Mac United States Show Events Agree Agree x 2 (list)

  23. Post #23
    Gold Member
    Disco_Potato's Avatar
    January 2012
    754 Posts
    Not all cars. Most cars, yes, but it doesnt have to be used in that way.

    There are lots of high performance cars using drive-by-wire to improve fuel economy and driveability, while at the same time improving performance. All you have to do is make it so "sport mode" remaps the drve-by-wire and suddenly you can have excellent throttle control without the slack and friction associated with a cable.
    The other benefit is that traction control can be implemented through the throttle, instead of just retarding ignition timing or w/e other means.

    Lets put it this way. Formula 1 cars are drive-by-wire, and I can tell you that its not for economy or saftey, its because it makes them faster.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Informative Informative x 3 (list)

  24. Post #24
    Streetwise Angel Booksmart Devil
    Grasp's Avatar
    January 2010
    3,044 Posts
    im pretty sure '82 corvettes aren't drive by wire
    I agree with you, I'm just saying that just because something isn't drive by wire, doesn't mean it will have an unresponsive throttle.

  25. Post #25
    Gold Member
    TestECull's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,034 Posts
    Not all cars. Most cars, yes, but it doesnt have to be used in that way.

    There are lots of high performance cars using drive-by-wire to improve fuel economy and driveability, while at the same time improving performance. All you have to do is make it so "sport mode" remaps the drve-by-wire and suddenly you can have excellent throttle control without the slack and friction associated with a cable.
    That's high performance stuff. For every one high performance car they build, ten or fifteen sluggish commuter cars get churned out.


    The other benefit is that traction control can be implemented through the throttle, instead of just retarding ignition timing or w/e other means.
    Fuck traction control. I manage to do just fine without it, and if i can do it anyone can. I'm not by any means an expert driver.

    Lets put it this way. Formula 1 cars are drive-by-wire, and I can tell you that its not for economy or saftey, its because it makes them faster.
    Drive by wire doesn't make them faster by itself. What does is that the computers can snap the throttles shut during shifts to preserve the transmission. The flappy paddle transmission they use, which shifts in well under a hundred milliseconds either way, is where the speed gains come from, the drive-by-wire only facilitates that transmission surviving the distance the FIA specifies. The cars wouldn't be any slower with a mechanical throttle, however they would eat transmissions like crazy.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows Vista United States Show Events Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  26. Post #26
    Gold Member
    Second-gear-of-mgear's Avatar
    June 2009
    6,054 Posts
    Wow. Dumbest thing I've seen in this subforum by far.


    The bus does not work for everyone. I live 20 miles from city limits. There is NO public transport out here. None at all. You can call a cab in advance but it takes 40 minutes just to get here from Nashville and the fare is fucking crazy. A sports car would be fun on these roads, sure, that's why I'm buying one anyway, but my pickup is FAR better suited to the area when the weather turns to shit, the salt trucks don't even come this far out and if the roads get plowed at all it's one of the local farmers, and it means I don't have to pay out the nose for appliance delivery.
    Shiieettt, you live near Nashville?
    I grew up in Cookeville!

    I really miss that state, I hate Florida.

  27. Post #27
    Gold Member
    Disco_Potato's Avatar
    January 2012
    754 Posts
    That's high performance stuff. For every one high performance car they build, ten or fifteen sluggish commuter cars get churned out.


    Fuck traction control. I manage to do just fine without it, and if i can do it anyone can. I'm not by any means an expert driver.



    Drive by wire doesn't make them faster by itself. What does is that the computers can snap the throttles shut during shifts to preserve the transmission. The flappy paddle transmission they use, which shifts in well under a hundred milliseconds either way, is where the speed gains come from, the drive-by-wire only facilitates that transmission surviving the distance the FIA specifies. The cars wouldn't be any slower with a mechanical throttle, however they would eat transmissions like crazy.
    The reason they allowed traction control in F1 is because it made them faster. There was a huge debate about not wanting to make the cars "easier" to drive, but once it was proven that it not only made them faster, but significantly faster, the systems were allowed to stay.
    The difference is not as big on a high performance street car as they cant predict road conditions and tires nearly as well as they can on a specific setup, and in a typical road car traction control is completely a hindrance. But, that doesnt change the fact that the technology CAN be used for performance.

    I dont use traction control when im trying to go fast in my car because the traction control system is for saftey, not performance. So I just turn it off.
    Even with 412 hp, 390 ft/lbs, extremely short gearing and shit tires, I have no trouble maintaining traction.
    But thats not the point. Im simply saying that these things can be used for different things. you cant condemn drive-by-wire and traction control just because its used for safety/economy in 99% of cars.

    Transmission aside, there is benefit to drive-by-wire. Even with a normal transmission and clutch they would still use drive-by-wire if they had the chance.
    A good stepper motor and a highly accurate potentionmeter pedal are super accurate and fast. Plus you have the ability to tune the relationship and use torque management.
    Its not like a mechanical linkage is without problems either. On my race car I had to check/adjust the throttle cable every single race to make sure I was getting the throttle open all the way, and I only had a single throttle. When you have 12 throttles you have to not only check each to see if theyre opening fully, but you have to syncronize them as well. Then there are issues of slack in the machanism, which you pretty much just have to live with.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Informative Informative x 2Zing Zing x 1Winner Winner x 1Dumb Dumb x 1 (list)

  28. Post #28
    Gold Member
    Angus513's Avatar
    March 2006
    220 Posts
    The type of throttle has pretty much no bearing on the engines performance and the reaction of the gearbox

    The reason it appears old cable throttle is more responsive is because new cars have to meet all the new emission regulations and the way they manage that is by mapping the engines so they don't pump as much fuel in at the bottom of the rev band but produce more power higher up the revs

    Also not helped by saftey ratings so new cars have to withstand crashes better, which mean stronger crash structures which means the cars are heavier so takes the edge of the acceleration
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United Kingdom Show Events Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  29. Post #29
    Gold Member
    abcpea2's Avatar
    April 2007
    5,665 Posts
    its got nothing to do with acceleration its when you take off or go back a gear

  30. Post #30
    thattaco's Avatar
    November 2010
    916 Posts
    [QUOTE=abcpea2;34809994]its got nothing to do with acceleration its when you take off or go back a i think engine performance is being confused with throttle response. every new car i can think of are throttle by wire started back in what 2002 or so that i can think of.

    what i miss is the feed back from the old cable throttles. news ones are so dead feeling.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  31. Post #31
    Gold Member
    TestECull's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,034 Posts
    Shiieettt, you live near Nashville?
    I grew up in Cookeville!

    I really miss that state, I hate Florida.

    I'm out on the east side of Nashville about a mile from Smith County. There isn't really much to miss out here though.

    The reason they allowed traction control in F1 is because it made them faster. There was a huge debate about not wanting to make the cars "easier" to drive, but once it was proven that it not only made them faster, but significantly faster, the systems were allowed to stay.
    And then it was banned again because it took the skill out of launching the cars off the grid and out of slower corners. It was no longer "He who is the best driver is the winner", it was "He who has the best traction control is the winner".

    The difference is not as big on a high performance street car as they cant predict road conditions and tires nearly as well as they can on a specific setup, and in a typical road car traction control is completely a hindrance. But, that doesnt change the fact that the technology CAN be used for performance.
    Where'd I say it couldn't?


    Even with 412 hp, 390 ft/lbs, extremely short gearing and shit tires, I have no trouble maintaining traction.
    To be fair it doesn't take much power to break the rears loose. I can to a brakestand and I've got a whopping 120HP or so left.

    But thats not the point. Im simply saying that these things can be used for different things. you cant condemn drive-by-wire and traction control just because its used for safety/economy in 99% of cars.
    I never condemned drive by wire. Stop acting like I did. And as for TC, I see that as a crutch people use as an excuse to take greater risks. Why should they practice proper throttle control when they can just mash it and let the computers sort the wheelspin? They see no reason to take responsibility for safely controlling their engine because the car will do it for them. That's why I want to see TC gone on cars, or automatically disabled above half throttle unless you manually hold down a button to override that.


    Transmission aside, there is benefit to drive-by-wire. Even with a normal transmission and clutch they would still use drive-by-wire if they had the chance.
    Flappy paddle gearboxes arrived in F1 before drive-by-wire AFAIK.


    A good stepper motor and a highly accurate potentionmeter pedal are super accurate and fast.
    So is a good cable. So what?

    Plus you have the ability to tune the relationship and use torque management.
    Pedal geomtry and driver skill.

    Its not like a mechanical linkage is without problems either.
    I never said it wasn't, and I never said either was better or worse. I have no fucking idea where you got onto this idea.

    On my race car I had to check/adjust the throttle cable every single race to make sure I was getting the throttle open all the way, and I only had a single throttle.
    Odd setup you had then, most of the time the adjustment point is at the throttle blade itself, the pedal able to move much farther without a cable.

    When you have 12 throttles you have to not only check each to see if theyre opening fully, but you have to syncronize them as well.
    You still have to do this with drive-by-wire. No two pots will return the same value, and if you don't fine-tune them you're going to have some throttles not open enough and some throttles bottoming out the actuator.

    Then there are issues of slack in the machanism, which you pretty much just have to live with.

    There's slack in a DBW throttle as well, especially as the mileage racks up and the pots start to wear.


    Either system has it's pros and cons, I never said one was better than the other, so stop trying to sell one over the other.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows Vista United States Show Events Informative Informative x 1 (list)

  32. Post #32
    Gold Member
    edberg's Avatar
    June 2005
    2,466 Posts
    i dont feel like wasting gas today, lets flash my economy map
    i feel like driving like an ass today, lets flash my e85 map

    for a DD I think electronic throttles are the way to go, the more the ECU controls the easier it is to have complete control over everything

    Edited:

    shit will have to be fine tuned regardless, the question is would you rather input numbers into a spreadsheet or fuck around with linkages? with DBW you only have to do it once though

  33. Post #33
    Gold Member
    TestECull's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,034 Posts
    i dont feel like wasting gas today, lets flash my economy map
    i feel like driving like an ass today, lets flash my e85 map

    for a DD I think electronic throttles are the way to go, the more the ECU controls the easier it is to have complete control over everything
    I think for a DD whatever's the most reliable and cost effective is the way to go. For some cars that will be a cable, some cars that will be DBW, some cars may even have a mixture of both(DBW system for the pedal, cruise control uses cable?). There isn't any one 'better' system, I could rattle off lists of pros and cons for both equally long if I wanted to.

    shit will have to be fine tuned regardless, the question is would you rather input numbers into a spreadsheet or fuck around with linkages? with DBW you only have to do it once though
    If I were building my own I'd opt for linkages. I prefer the feel and the fact that they're more or less immune to water. They should only need adjusting once or twice in the car's lifespan. If you have to adjust the throttle cable more than once every decade there's something else going on that needs to be fixed first.


    But I'm one of those nuts that likes to work on their own, and I find it easier to use a couple wrenches than rely on a laptop to adjust things.

  34. Post #34
    Gold Member
    abcpea2's Avatar
    April 2007
    5,665 Posts
    i dont feel like wasting gas today, lets flash my economy map
    i feel like driving like an ass today, lets flash my e85 map
    how do u do that

  35. Post #35
    Gold Member
    TestECull's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,034 Posts
    how do u do that

    Most likely an aftermarket ECU that allows such a toggle. Either that, or he's got a sports car that comes standard with such things.


    Why he'd switch to an E85 map when he's not running E85 is a better question.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows Vista United States Show Events Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  36. Post #36
    Concur's Avatar
    December 2011
    1,964 Posts
    Why he'd switch to an E85 map when he's not running E85 is a better question.
    because


    RACECAR
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Funny Funny x 3Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  37. Post #37

    November 2010
    510 Posts
    That's high performance stuff. For every one high performance car they build, ten or fifteen sluggish commuter cars get churned out.


    Fuck traction control. I manage to do just fine without it, and if i can do it anyone can. I'm not by any means an expert driver.



    Drive by wire doesn't make them faster by itself. What does is that the computers can snap the throttles shut during shifts to preserve the transmission. The flappy paddle transmission they use, which shifts in well under a hundred milliseconds either way, is where the speed gains come from, the drive-by-wire only facilitates that transmission surviving the distance the FIA specifies. The cars wouldn't be any slower with a mechanical throttle, however they would eat transmissions like crazy.
    Even skilled drivers can benefit from traction control on a commuter car. There's no reason at all not to have it.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Disagree Disagree x 1 (list)

  38. Post #38
    Gold Member
    TestECull's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,034 Posts
    Even skilled drivers can benefit from traction control on a commuter car. There's no reason at all not to have it.
    For every one instance of a skilled driver benefitting from traction control you have ten soccer moms that absolve themselves of all responsibility and mash the throttle wildly because the computer will sort it out for them.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows Vista United States Show Events Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  39. Post #39

    November 2010
    510 Posts
    For every one instance of a skilled driver benefitting from traction control you have ten soccer moms that absolve themselves of all responsibility and mash the throttle wildly because the computer will sort it out for them.
    As correct as you are, I kind of doubt that many soccer moms even know what traction control is or that it's even working (Thus knowing they can abuse it). Anything that keeps terrible drivers from hitting me is a plus. I kind of wish my 98 Chrysler had it sometimes, but then I wouldn't feel cool after correcting a slide in the snow on my own, so meh
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows 7 United States Show Events Agree Agree x 1 (list)

  40. Post #40
    Gold Member
    TestECull's Avatar
    July 2007
    7,034 Posts
    As correct as you are, I kind of doubt that many soccer moms even know what traction control is or that it's even working (Thus knowing they can abuse it). Anything that keeps terrible drivers from hitting me is a plus. I kind of wish my 98 Chrysler had it sometimes, but then I wouldn't feel cool after correcting a slide in the snow on my own, so meh

    How could they not know about it? It's on the ads. It's a selling point. On top of that, they have to know something is up when they can mash 400HP WOT on snow and not do an instant donut.


    They know cars take care of things on their own and abuse that. They don't want to drive properly, and they're the ones that worry me the most. I honestly think without the electronic aids they'd get scared into driving sensibly VERY fast.
    Reply With Quote Edit / Delete Reply Windows Vista United States Show Events Agree Agree x 1Dumb Dumb x 1 (list)