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Post #361
I skim read a bit of this and I don't think anyone was actually homosexual but I might be wrong.
Well I'm gay. Until I was seventeen I thought I was straight because I'd had sex with 3 girls but met a guy that was awesome and 2 years later we're together.
Choice, not gene.
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I have some gay friends myself, and most of them say it's genes. I guess it's just a combination of both, really.
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It is part gene and part environmental factors (when the baby is in the womb). Wikipedia has an article on it and it is heavily referenced.
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it's definitely not a gene, that's for sure. if we can go as far as to compare it with food - some people like apples, some people don't. some people like alcohol, some don't. I think it's just something you're programmed to have - and yes you can say "thats genes" but you dont have genes to whether you like the taste of apples or not (correct me if I'm wrong here).
hell you could even say that people change, and go from not liking, say, peanut butter to liking peanut butter (or vice versa) - you get my drift
no idea how to explain bisexuality, just liking both I suppose - and whether it's a choice or not, I really think there's a heavy influence from nurture (so not necessarily a choice)
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Think of it this way
How many gorgeous girls would you need to be offered in order for sex with one attractive guy?
I think it's Mostly genetic. I Like girls, but i have had rare moments where i have felt attraction towards a guy. There is a fence and you can be stuck on either side, You can also be on the top
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You know it's not black and white right? You're bi.
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Because some don't believe in the science matter of the topic and like to express what they think in there pure opinion.
Edited:
Doesn't exactly means he bi. I'm afraid that might happen to me. First person I had sex with was a girl, but guys seem to come up more to me equally then girls, and it's not even me forcing it.
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To be honest, it feels like neither. Now don't take this the wrong way, it's time for one big opinionated spout and I'm not about to start quoting medical journals or psychologists, but from what I've seen between many of my bisexual, homosexual, and asexual friends - it's something people develop into. It's only a gene as far as genes tell you if you're willing to try a certain kind of fruit or new experience; and it's only a choice as far as.. about the same thing.
People don't instantly flick a switch in their head and go "I like only men/women/both genders." The choice aspect can goes to the extent whether people accept the idea of not. However, I certainly wasn't born into my current position. I wasn't 6/12/18 and suddenly went "I'm open to the idea of loving men now in the same way most men love women." It was only after a few years of dating a guy did I even feel remotely comfortable with it - and it was still really awkward for me to think about at first; and culturally, I still don't think I'd come out of the closet (in real life) because that's just extra drama on the table with today's society.
The absolute only thing that disgusts me about these discussions though is when people start trying to label it a disorder. As previous people have stated, it's only a disorder as far as being left-handed, or having heterochromia iridum (which I guess, medically, is one but has literally no bad side-effects). I know that the word disorder is medically suppose to be a neutral word, instead of using disease or illness, but that doesn't really make way for the fact it's still a way of saying that there's something wrong. The only thing 'wrong' about non-heterosexuals these days boils down to culture and reproduction. And since we don't have any laws, real or moral, that say "You have to have babies" - that just leaves the people too clung to their own ideals or scared of actually talking to their children about sex. That's my little ramble and two and a half cents.
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Well, like alcohol or not is based on taste buds; it's a set genetic still. You can't really change your taste buds besides by eating the foods that you hate frequently till you like it, or that sort of jazz.
Edited:
Automerge.
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I believe it's genes.
From what I keep hearing from people is that a human has a certain amount of Male and Female chromosomes. And when they hit puberty, an extra chromosome is added. And it could be male or female.
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I "spout" the same things because they just so happen to be the only logical explanation. To be honest, I'm not the only one resenting evidence. You guys are constantly denying our current knowledge of human behavior, and pretty much saying: "It doesn't matter because we have these studies!"
So you guys are denying a form of logic that as far as I'm concerned is a much better source than a few guys contradicting it.
My argument is fine. You guys just need to use your brain a little more and not rely so much on what an article tells you.
Edited:
Read above and learn not to use articles as your main form of logic.
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I've noticed this too. Based on my own experiences (make of it what you will), it seems that people are born with certain possible extent of what their sexuality can include/disclude, and based on their experiences they extend or limit their horizon. Then again, I am bi, and my experiences most likely don't share many similarities to those limited to a single gender.
As a side note, I'm not insinuating that being limited is a bad thing!
Your lack of understanding simple genetics makes me physically ill.
Edited:
Just speechless.
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But this goes against what the scientific facts seem to indicate. How can you argue a science based argument based on personal pet theories?
Short of throwing in something about little men arranging the chromosomes or water having a memory, you could not be more wrong. Extra chromosomes don't get added like that, you might be getting confused with chromosomal disorders like downs syndrome along with the concept of sex determining chromosomes, but... well I'm not entirely sure you know what a chromosome is, so I suggest you have a read of this.
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You can't tout newly found research or rough scientific guesses as fact - some of those things get disproved over night.. or over years. Science isn't a hard, cold and solid foundation to always build everything on - especially when it comes to societal and biological sciences. It'd be different if it was basic math. Remember, we once believed the Earth was flat and flies spontaneously sprouted from old meat.
Could a certain gene sway people to be more or less open to the idea - potentially. I wouldn't argue that at all. I just highly doubt there's some magical gene that instantly makes a person hard-line homosexual. Or bisexual.
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Why do we even have a thread for this
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So it is bullshit, my biology teacher is a lying cunt I guess.
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There's no way to tell if liking an apple is just an genetic influence, as our ancestors depended on apples and other foods for survival; or if liking an apple is a psychological influence, apples remind us of some childhood event with our parents; or if liking an apple is a social influence, everyone else likes apples so I do too.
Liking an apple, as with liking the same sex, should be taken with a biopsychosocial approach.
Who are you to say that we don't have a gene for liking certain types of food? Our genes are a guidebook for surviving the climates in which we evolved in, it tells us where food is or what kind of food is safe to eat.
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I never downright stated that what I said was right, merely my opinion, and unless you can provide me with solid correct information, I'm going to be reluctant to think otherwise. And as I said, correct me if I'm wrong about that food gene thing (which you failed to) so please don't call me an idiot
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Can we just close this thread? Clearly no new arguments are being presented. It's just filling up with trolls at this point.
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There isn't a whole lot to be discussed when everyone ignores the person with a different insight then them because that person doesn't have a shitty online article to use as his evidence. Then again, I guess it would be pointless since all I've been doing is trying to explain to people how human behavior works and they've been refusing to accept that thousands of other people more qualified than myself also believe the same thing.
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Deaded, we're getting pissed off at you because you're posting opinions as fact with no evidence. We've been doing the same thing WITH evidence, and are "dismissing your argument" because you have done absolutely nothing to back yourself up
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I don't recall ever choosing to be straight
Edited:
Food is a terrible example, as you can literally "train" your taste into liking any food, even stuff you don't really like
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Right... the evidence that goes against everything we know about human behavior. I don't care if you're getting pissed off or not. Learn to stop relying so much on shitty ABC News articles and use your fucking heads.
You know what? I'm going to go look up some equally shitty sources to prove my point - just to please all of your guys' stupidity.
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You do need to back up your points with credible sources, citing "common sense" won't get you anywhere in a debate.
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That's awfully shitty to be honest. Not that rule. But the sheer fact people these people will rely more on a "credible" article rather than something that actually makes sense just because "it wouldn't be debating".
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automerge break
I am highlighting the things you should not be claiming.
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Edited:
You are repeatedly assuming that you must be correct and that everyone else is wrong, but you can not support yourself. You also dismiss any other claims as 'shitty' and such, which does not count as a point.
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If you're trying to make me look bad because I "flamed", then that's very nice of you.
Seriously though, you guys ignore me because you know I (and many others) am right - not because "I don't have any evidence". Which making that claim is bullshit anyway. Just because it hasn't been posted on the internet, that doesn't make your claims right.
Edited:
Seriously? You guys must be really thick.
I'm not the only one who believes this. I'm sure there are sources (like I really need them...) out there somewhere proving my point. I just don't feel like looking for them all damn day.
Edited:
And why the fuck can't I claim that? Most of the shit you've highlighted are reasonable.
Edit: Actually, all of it.
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With that statement you are still simply brushing off opposing points rather than making any effort to prove them wrong. You are very ignorant, and arrogant, to claim that we do not agree with you 'because you are right'.
You seem to be the only one debating your side of the argument by this point in the thread, and have consistently proven yourself to be incapable of mature debate. For this reason, I also support the locking of this thread.
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Putting credibility in quotes doesn't suddenly mean it doesn't matter. You cannot make a sound argument on the basis of supposed common sense alone.
Edited:
If there are then by all means posted them. Continuing to argue like this unsubstantiated is against the rules in this section.
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Deaded I highly doubt your common sense is peer-reviewed.
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Brushing off? I'm brushing it off because it's ridiculous. I can say we're all being mind controlled by evil donkeys with sledgehammers in another land, but does that make it right? No. I have made an effort to prove them wrong. I just haven't done it the way all of you want me to:
GO FUCKING LOOK UP A CREDIBLE ONLINE ARTICLE AND POST IT HERE SO WE CAN ALL SAY "NOPE" JUST LIKE WE ARE NOW!
I don't see how I've even proven myself to be ignorant or arrogant. Maybe a little ignorant is some people's minds, but those are the people who don't understand a damn thing about human behavior (which you don't either, apparently). Saying that I'm arrogant is a very wild claim to make me look stupid. I am in no way full of myself. Also, you keep referring to my argument as if I'm the only one who believes it. Many people more qualified than I believe this, so stop with that right there.
I can debate. I just won't make my claims based solely on some shitty internet article and nothing else. Hell, if I knew the Mass Debate section was going to be like that, I probably would've never even looked in this section. But you know what? I'll still keep posting whether you guys like it or not. You (and the others who want this thread locked) are little babies because someone posted something logical without a source. I may be "immature", but at least I think for myself.
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If you continue to go on this tirade and insist that people debating with cited sources are somehow less credible than your own unbacked positions, there will have to be consequences. I've given you more than one chance to redeem yourself, so just stop.
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So I thought I'd add my opinion on the matter too.
From personal experience(which obviously is not a universal answer) I can tell that being homosexual is NOT a choice, accepting it and living a homosexual way however is a choice.
In fact, it's kinda weird I never really felt attracted to men when I was younger, neither I was afraid of gay people, it just seemed rather awkward or "unknown".
My attitude then changed within 2 or 4 month, when I was about 16 1/2.
So the only real choice I could make was to either accept or suppress it.
I thought a lot about why this happened and came to the conclusion that every human might have something like a "blockade" that's suppose to stop us from loving others with the same sex.
I can't tell if it's a nature or a nurture barrier it's just a though, I'm not going to proof it or anything it's just what I think it is.
Since I cannot tell if this barrier is real or not, assuming it is being homosexual is not a choice, if it isn't it would be a choice, even if it was one you can't controll.
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This is basically the same way I feel. Infact, I could measure how far right on the Kinsey scale I was going. Around only 6-7 months ago I felt that I was perfectly bisexual, and now I can only just barely get attracted to the idea of a woman.
I don't think this is at all what other people have experienced, given how they've talked about it.
I'm 16 1/2 right now, for reference.
edit:
Also, I was completely straight a year ago.
I can't really remember when I started becoming/realizing I was attracted to the same sex.
(though i started looking at gay dragon porn that might've had something to do with it)
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That is a nice model post for personal experience/opinion input.
We could talk about this more clearly if you would clarify whether or not you were ever attracted to the opposite sex, and if/when that stopped.
As for myself, I would tell myself at an early age that I was attracted to women because I would not admit my attraction to men. After I accepted myself, psychological barriers in my ability to think rationally fell and I was able to clearly see that anything I felt for women was not attraction in any sense like that I have for men.
Edited:
post directed at wizard
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Choice is highly unlikely, if you take it in the literal sense i.e 'I will or will not homosexual today'. My general consensus is that it is genes, because I certainly didn't choose to be attracted to both sexes. It was more that once I realised, I just accepted it as a part of who I am.
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Well, I certainly was attracted to the opposite sex (sexual and emotional), and I still am for a very very little part, only sexual though.
But since my orientation changed I'm basically not capable to have feelings for girls/women.
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I think it's a choice and a gene. Maybe everyone has such gene, but it's our own choice to choose who we want to be together with - friends wise - and who we don't want to. It'll eventually change the way we look at the world and act, all depending on whom we're spending much time with.
