1. Post #41
    ASK ME ABOUT MY PLAYBOOK INSTEAD OF COLLEGE
    icantread49's Avatar
    April 2011
    1,616 Posts
    Looks like an IDE you'd find inside a technology-oriented game
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  2. Post #42
    burak575's Avatar
    January 2008
    83 Posts
    You should consider collaboratively designing UML diagrams. Will be a cool feature. Also real time drawing would be cool too. Since its easier to share ideas as images than lots of text. I already seen the UML menu on your screen shots but dont know about collaboration thing.

    Also auto-completion by context is very important for me, without it I wont use any other IDE. For this you should parse c++ code and other languages too.
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  3. Post #43
    Gold Member

    March 2005
    3,028 Posts
    In addition to what everyone else said, your code overview (map, whatever) pane needs mipmapping or proper downsampling.

    Not a bad start, though. You just need someone who can actually do UI design :\

  4. Post #44
    EGN Founder
    CountNoobula's Avatar
    May 2010
    505 Posts
    Just from the screenshots this doesn't look nice. Why would you make it transparent? So you can see your icon-covered desktop's text mashed in with your code's text? Will it have a Vim-like mode? Will it support a shell? Will I get sued for decompiling and modding it (if it's not open source, it's not worth my time)? "because we know how badly most editors are designed" Why are you comparing an editor to an IDE? How are they badly designed? Why do you think a pretty UI will make up for bad design decisions?
    Ok, answering this is getting annoying. I shall repeat once again: You can theme it! We liked the transparent effect for the base design as it allowed us to monitor our terminal, etc. in the background while we worked. No, unfortunately we will not create a CLI version. An IDE is essentially a code editor, what is the problem in the comparison? I will make you a nice list for PM if you really want. We never said a pretty UI would make up for bad design decisions, we enjoy an aesthetically-pleasing workspace. We are working at maintaining a modular, clean and efficient system that avoids various common pitfalls. We are still discussing over opensource vs closedsource.

    Vi mode please
    Unfortunately at this particular moment, we do not plan to support a CLI version.

    Another thing: Is it really good to have an OpenGL based IDE? I imagine Fraps counters and whatnot being really annoying, and it ruining SSH support. (Yes I do actually use my duct tape IDE over SSH)
    As technology advances, we want to start taking advantage of what the hardware has to offer.

    You should consider collaboratively designing UML diagrams. Will be a cool feature. Also real time drawing would be cool too. Since its easier to share ideas as images than lots of text. I already seen the UML menu on your screen shots but dont know about collaboration thing.

    Also auto-completion by context is very important for me, without it I wont use any other IDE. For this you should parse c++ code and other languages too.
    We will be implementing UML collaboration. You can add various other language autocompletion, etc. through the API we are developing.

    In addition to what everyone else said, your code overview (map, whatever) pane needs mipmapping or proper downsampling.

    Not a bad start, though. You just need someone who can actually do UI design :\
    We are busy working on improving it. Heavy WIP :)
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  5. Post #45
    Gold Member
    Jookia's Avatar
    July 2007
    6,768 Posts
    Vi mode doesn't have to be CLI, just have support for Vi keybindings.

    An IDE isn't a code editor, it's a develop environment. The code editor is what you type in to.

    Why do you need OpenGL for an IDE though? I mean, what's the justification as opposed to using a GUI toolkit like Qt, GTK+ or Win32? You should have a good reason to ruin screenreader support, or voice dictation support (Windows allows you to press buttons using voice, it's pretty cool).

    I'd still like a list of all the bad decisions other editors have made. A PM would be nice but I'm sure others would like to know too,
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  6. Post #46
    burak575's Avatar
    January 2008
    83 Posts
    I just have another idea. Which is mini map. Which is like in RTS games. You will show the UML diagrams in minimap like enemy bases. When you done implementing it will turn yellow, and when testing is done it will turn green.
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  7. Post #47
    Gold Member
    esalaka's Avatar
    July 2007
    10,064 Posts
    Unfortunately at this particular moment, we do not plan to support a CLI version.
    No just give me a modular editing setting so I can hjkl as much as I want to.

    I would like IDEs more if they actually worked like I've grown to expect a code editor to behave. I've stopped trying to <esc>:w in Office but I still just can't not do that when writing code and the lack of vi keys is irritating.

    For whatever reason.

  8. Post #48
    Gold Member
    Chryseus's Avatar
    February 2009
    2,351 Posts
    Hardcode will run on any system and will give you hardware level graphics support to take some of its awesome features into an experience that you commonly find in games.
    Why are you even comparing what is basically just a text editor to games, when I program something I don't want distracting shit like transparency getting in the way.
    The interface is frankly ugly with too much wasted space, even if you can make your own theme the main theme should show off the features of the editor, no decent programmer will take the editor seriously looking like it is.

    Realtime editing is nothing new either Gobby does the exact same thing.

  9. Post #49
    EGN Founder
    CountNoobula's Avatar
    May 2010
    505 Posts
    Vi mode doesn't have to be CLI, just have support for Vi keybindings.

    An IDE isn't a code editor, it's a develop environment. The code editor is what you type in to.

    Why do you need OpenGL for an IDE though? I mean, what's the justification as opposed to using a GUI toolkit like Qt, GTK+ or Win32? You should have a good reason to ruin screenreader support, or voice dictation support (Windows allows you to press buttons using voice, it's pretty cool).

    I'd still like a list of all the bad decisions other editors have made. A PM would be nice but I'm sure others would like to know too,
    I will discuss the Vi keybindings idea with the team, thanks.
    The code editor is one of the primary, most essential parts of an IDE. Yes, an IDE has a lot of other things, but without the code editor, it wouldn't really be an IDE.
    None of that is actually sacrificed, we have been testing as we have developed and so far the screen reader and dictation on Windows work. The UML, contextual mapping system and managers are all going to to be OpenGL based, the editor pane is a standard widget, but is heavily extended upon.
    I'll compile one for you soon. Watch the space.

  10. Post #50
    Gold Member

    March 2005
    3,028 Posts
    I just have another idea. Which is mini map. Which is like in RTS games. You will show the UML diagrams in minimap like enemy bases. When you done implementing it will turn yellow, and when testing is done it will turn green.
    Do people actually use UML?
    I only encountered it in one software engineering course I took, but it seemed convoluted, pointless, stupid, etc.. I'd have to break out a thesaurus to list all the negative qualifiers that I'd apply.
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  11. Post #51
    EGN Founder
    CountNoobula's Avatar
    May 2010
    505 Posts
    I just have another idea. Which is mini map. Which is like in RTS games. You will show the UML diagrams in minimap like enemy bases. When you done implementing it will turn yellow, and when testing is done it will turn green.
    You can make a plugin for that, we will try implement enough hooks for you to do that.

  12. Post #52
    Gold Member
    Chryseus's Avatar
    February 2009
    2,351 Posts
    Do people actually use UML?
    I only encountered it in one software engineering course I took, but it seemed convoluted, pointless, stupid, etc.. I'd have to break out a thesaurus to list all the negative qualifiers that I'd apply.
    I've never found a decent use for UML either.
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  13. Post #53
    Gold Member
    Jookia's Avatar
    July 2007
    6,768 Posts
    I'd still like a list of all the bad decisions other editors and IDEs have made. I also want to know if you'll have embedded shell support.
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  14. Post #54
    EGN Founder
    CountNoobula's Avatar
    May 2010
    505 Posts
    Why are you even comparing what is basically just a text editor to games, when I program something I don't want distracting shit like transparency getting in the way.
    The interface is frankly ugly with too much wasted space, even if you can make your own theme the main theme should show off the features of the editor, no decent programmer will take the editor seriously looking like it is.

    Realtime editing is nothing new either Gobby does the exact same thing.
    Ok. Now this common issue is starting to become annoying. Please read back on the posts. You will notice that we are still filling in all the various spaces with many other spaces. If you check the image on the home page of the site, you will notice a very nice image of concept art/wip hybrid. Please look at that before criticising the space factor. Now to the next common issue. It is HEAVY WIP. The theme might change. It is still under a lot of development. Did we state realtime editing was brand new and a unique idea? Realtime editing is like a desk, you use the idea if you want to.

  15. Post #55
    Gold Member
    Jookia's Avatar
    July 2007
    6,768 Posts
    Realtime editing has been done before, using Gobby.
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  16. Post #56
    Gold Member
    danharibo's Avatar
    July 2006
    4,432 Posts
    says in the first post...
    He's trying to show off the project - it should look decent by default.
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  17. Post #57
    EGN Founder
    CountNoobula's Avatar
    May 2010
    505 Posts
    He's trying to show off the project - it should look decent by default.
    Danharibo, some appreciate our design sense, others don't. You are one of those who don't. We can't please everyone.
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  18. Post #58
    Gold Member

    March 2005
    3,028 Posts
    Ok. Now this common issue is starting to become annoying. Please read back on the posts. You will notice that we are still filling in all the various spaces with many other spaces. If you check the image on the home page of the site, you will notice a very nice image of concept art/wip hybrid. Please look at that before criticising the space factor. Now to the next common issue. It is HEAVY WIP. The theme might change. It is still under a lot of development. Did we state realtime editing was brand new and a unique idea? Realtime editing is like a desk, you use the idea if you want to.
    I think the main point is 'initial impressions'
    It doesn't matter if you can customize it or not, because if it looks that bad on the main page of your site, anybody with any UI design skill is going to be scared off right away, and you won't get those less-eye-gouging themes you desperately need.
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  19. Post #59
    voodooattack's Avatar
    October 2009
    1,933 Posts
    What the fuck is it with the butthurt in this thread? They're developing something they like, and enjoying it.. what's your problem people?

    The graphics are a plus imo, but it's the underlying functionality that matters.

    At least be constructive with your criticism, assholes.
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  20. Post #60
    EGN Founder
    CountNoobula's Avatar
    May 2010
    505 Posts
    Shell support will be implemented.

    I think the main point is 'initial impressions'
    It doesn't matter if you can customize it or not, because if it looks that bad on the main page of your site, anybody with any UI design skill is going to be scared off right away, and you won't get those less-eye-gouging themes you desperately need.
    Danharibo, some appreciate our design sense, others don't. You are one of those who don't. We can't please everyone.
    This applies here.

  21. Post #61
    Gold Member

    March 2005
    3,028 Posts
    I'd like to know who these 'some' are, because they are clearly mad.
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  22. Post #62
    burak575's Avatar
    January 2008
    83 Posts
    Do people actually use UML?
    I only encountered it in one software engineering course I took, but it seemed convoluted, pointless, stupid, etc.. I'd have to break out a thesaurus to list all the negative qualifiers that I'd apply.
    Yeah I don't like designing in UML either. Especially when you going solo its not even needed. Since everything is in your mind and designing in there already. But in projects with multiple team members they may use it if they want to go fully planned. Also code > uml conversion and showing the relations between classes could make new members to team can easily understand structure of software. Or you can see the class diagram for new projects you just got from github. Quick overlook to structure of software can make you adapt faster I think. Otherwise I am agreeing with you

  23. Post #63
    Gold Member
    Jookia's Avatar
    July 2007
    6,768 Posts
    I still haven't got any information for the "we know how badly most editors are designed" statement. I'd like to know the pitfalls and whatnot that this editor is avoiding.
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  24. Post #64
    Gold Member
    danharibo's Avatar
    July 2006
    4,432 Posts
    Shell support will be implemented.

    This applies here.
    I like the overall design, it's very nice.

    I just don't think that slightly transparent is good default, nor a good first impression.
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  25. Post #65
    EGN Founder
    CountNoobula's Avatar
    May 2010
    505 Posts
    I'd like to know who these 'some' are, because they are clearly mad.
    Take a look at those who like the FB page for instance.

    I still haven't got any information for the "we know how badly most editors are designed" statement. I'd like to know the pitfalls and whatnot that this editor is avoiding.
    As I said we are compiling a list for you :) I am getting the whole team involved on that question.

    I like the overall design, it's very nice.

    I just don't think that slightly transparent is good default, nor a good first impression.
    I see, thanks for making it a little more clear. I'll bring it up at next meeting.
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  26. Post #66
    quincy18's Avatar
    September 2007
    998 Posts
    I also like the design allot, even if its that standard look you get with futuristic games I like it. The only thing bothering me is that I could see my desktop but I already read that you could change that so keep up the good work :)
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  27. Post #67
    Gold Member
    Jookia's Avatar
    July 2007
    6,768 Posts
    As I said we are compiling a list for you :) I am getting the whole team involved on that question
    That's awesome, but that begs the question: Did you just write that without anything in mind? You have literally no examples off the top of your head?
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  28. Post #68
    I just have another idea. Which is mini map. Which is like in RTS games. You will show the UML diagrams in minimap like enemy bases. When you done implementing it will turn yellow, and when testing is done it will turn green.
    What happens when you're doing TDD and you write your tests first?

  29. Post #69
    EGN Founder
    CountNoobula's Avatar
    May 2010
    505 Posts
    That's awesome, but that begs the question: Did you just write that without anything in mind? You have literally no examples off the top of your head?
    All statements are first reviewed by the team. We always back our statements, but like to compile a full list first. You can find a similar example of this on the Facebook timeline update where we argued the reasons why timeline was good and got several to conclude that timeline was infact a good change. Although that is a story for another day, you can go check the fb archives for that. Give time.
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  30. Post #70
    ASK ME ABOUT MY PLAYBOOK INSTEAD OF COLLEGE
    icantread49's Avatar
    April 2011
    1,616 Posts
    I'm gonna be brutally honest, the "coders" on your Facebook page appear to be very casual programmers more intrigued by the "cool" look of their IDE than their actual code.

    Here in the Facepunch Programming section, we're all real coders. We don't care about "fuck yeah, 3D hardware acceleration" in our IDE's. We care about ease of use, ease on the eyes, strong integration with standard technology, etc.

    Edited:

    Basically, don't be so surprised that everyone on FP is telling you "the UI is horrible" just because your friends on FB are telling you "keep up the good work, Timmy!"
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  31. Post #71
    Gold Member
    Jookia's Avatar
    July 2007
    6,768 Posts
    All statements are first reviewed by the team. We always back our statements, but like to compile a full list first. You can find a similar example of this on the Facebook timeline update where we argued the reasons why timeline was good and got several to conclude that timeline was infact a good change. Although that is a story for another day, you can go check the fb archives for that. Give time.
    Can I have some kind of backing for that statement then? One example?

    Having people conclude something means you've changed their opinion, this is objective fact we're talking about.

    Edited:

    I'm gonna be brutally honest, the "coders" on your Facebook page appear to be very casual programmers more intrigued by the "cool" look of their IDE than their actual code.

    Here in the Facepunch Programming section, we're all real coders. We don't care about "fuck yeah, 3D hardware acceleration" in our IDE's. We care about ease of use, ease on the eyes, strong integration with standard technology, etc.

    Edited:

    Basically, don't be so surprised that everyone on FP is telling you "the UI is horrible" just because your friends on FB are telling you "keep up the good work, Timmy!"
    Dude you make physics toys.
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  32. Post #72
    Gold Member
    esalaka's Avatar
    July 2007
    10,064 Posts
    Here in the Facepunch Programming section, we're all real coders. We don't care about "fuck yeah, 3D hardware acceleration" in our IDE's. We care about ease of use, ease on the eyes, strong integration with standard technology, etc.
    Pfffffft, yeah, as if
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  33. Post #73
    ASK ME ABOUT MY PLAYBOOK INSTEAD OF COLLEGE
    icantread49's Avatar
    April 2011
    1,616 Posts
    Dude you make physics toys.
    And you spend months upon months trying to get Unicode to work in C++
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  34. Post #74
    Gold Member
    Jookia's Avatar
    July 2007
    6,768 Posts
    And you spend months upon months trying to get Unicode to work in C++
    I succeeded. Months upon months ago.
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  35. Post #75
    Gold Member
    ryandaniels's Avatar
    December 2006
    3,940 Posts
    Why is this rapidly escalating into a heated debate? It appears that 95% of the criticism is entirely motivated by the fact that the IDE is shiny and transparent. If it was instead opaque and had a black-on-white color scheme, people wouldn't be flipping out.

    I can understand being skeptical of something that looks so flashy, but this fear has already been posted a hundred times now. The point has been made.


    Seriously, whenever someone shows the slightest ambition around here, people start obsessively trying to probe the creator for some fatal flaw that proves he's "not a real programmer". And if they do, then it just turns into an all out lynching where people hurl insults and queries until the person says something stupid, which spurs the crowd on.
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  36. Post #76
    Gold Member

    March 2005
    3,028 Posts
    Here in the Facepunch Programming section, we're all real coders.
    Aren't you in like high school or something?
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  37. Post #77
    EGN Founder
    CountNoobula's Avatar
    May 2010
    505 Posts
    I'm gonna be brutally honest, the "coders" on your Facebook page appear to be very casual programmers more intrigued by the "cool" look of their IDE than their actual code.

    Here in the Facepunch Programming section, we're all real coders. We don't care about "fuck yeah, 3D hardware acceleration" in our IDE's. We care about ease of use, ease on the eyes, strong integration with standard technology, etc.

    Edited:

    Basically, don't be so surprised that everyone on FP is telling you "the UI is horrible" just because your friends on FB are telling you "keep up the good work, Timmy!"
    Firstly, Timmy? LOL. Ok, now that I got that out of my system. Although some of them are casuals, most of them I do not even know. Our system integrates with standard technology and can be adjusted to be easy on the eye. Ease of use you can decide for yourself when a download link becomes available.

    Can I have some kind of backing for that statement then? One example?

    Having people conclude something means you've changed their opinion, this is objective fact we're talking about.

    Edited:



    Dude you make physics toys.
    We release no posts without a full admin backing and we are sticking by our word of first compiling a list for you.

  38. Post #78
    Gold Member
    Jookia's Avatar
    July 2007
    6,768 Posts
    I'm just saying, my IDE uses tools that were openly available in the 80s. I don't see what there is to fix, and I kind of want to find out what's wrong with previous IDEs.

    Edited:

    We release no posts without a full admin backing and we are sticking by our word of first compiling a list for you.
    Holy shit you must have some serious shit on all those IDEs. Either that or you take yourself way too seriously.
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  39. Post #79
    ASK ME ABOUT MY PLAYBOOK INSTEAD OF COLLEGE
    icantread49's Avatar
    April 2011
    1,616 Posts
    Aren't you in like high school or something?
    Your point?
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  40. Post #80
    voodooattack's Avatar
    October 2009
    1,933 Posts
    Easy guys, keep the arguments for WAYWO.
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