1. Post #1
    I'm halving my usage of math each week.. but, apparently I'll never be able to quit.
    Bradyns's Avatar
    October 2009
    5,829 Posts
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  2. Post #2
    J-Dude's Avatar
    December 2007
    1,657 Posts
    Holy shit!

    I've never heard THAT argument. That's fucking brilliant, completely bulletproof.
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  3. Post #3
    Gold Member
    Jimpy's Avatar
    July 2005
    1,260 Posts
    Sounds like he has marbles in his mouth which makes this annoying to listen to.
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  4. Post #4
    Gold Member
    DarkOps's Avatar
    July 2010
    1,706 Posts
    My head hurts now.
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  5. Post #5
    Gold Member
    Ultraleet's Avatar
    November 2005
    480 Posts
    sounds like RJWeapon


    who unfortunately had their account banned from youtube.

  6. Post #6
    italian
    TerabyteS_'s Avatar
    June 2011
    2,645 Posts
    Wouldn't it just be easier to think that if the constants and coincidences that let our universe, our planet and ourselves exist hadn't verified, we ourselves would not be there to acknowledge and testify to it? One way to see it could be that we just live in one of the infinite potential parallel instances of this universe and coincidentally in the one that let us come to life; just because we could not have possibly come to life in any other instance (or most of them), it doesn't mean that someone or something (or the universe itself) fine-tuned our environment to make it possible for us to live. That's a very naive and blind-sighted argument in my opinion.
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  7. Post #7
    Gold Member
    KlaseR's Avatar
    December 2007
    3,852 Posts
    what if god made the world like this on purpose?

    This video only shows that god didn't make the universe perfect. Who says he wanted to in the first place?
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  8. Post #8
    italian
    TerabyteS_'s Avatar
    June 2011
    2,645 Posts
    what if god made the world like this on purpose?

    This video only shows that god didn't make the universe perfect. Who says he wanted to in the first place?
    I do not personally believe in any God or omnipotent entity or any theory of intelligent design that comes from such belief, but to try to give a response to your argument: wouldn't creating a flawed universe (as opposed to the meaning of "perfect" in this case, because we surely cannot define what perfection would be in these terms) be a demonstration of God's lack of power? Or, what would be the reason behind it, if there were one at all?
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  9. Post #9
    Gold Member
    KlaseR's Avatar
    December 2007
    3,852 Posts
    I do not personally believe in any God or omnipotent entity or any theory of intelligent design that comes from such belief, but to try to give a response to your argument: wouldn't creating a flawed universe (as opposed to the meaning of "perfect" in this case, because we surely cannot define what perfection would be in these terms) be a demonstration of God's lack of power? Or, what would be the reason behind it, if there were one at all?
    If god could do what he wanted, I presume he would also be able to create something with intentional flaws. For whatever reason.
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  10. Post #10
    DesumThePanda's Avatar
    January 2010
    9,902 Posts
    what if god made the world like this on purpose?

    This video only shows that god didn't make the universe perfect. Who says he wanted to in the first place?
    Then he is not all caring. If he truly cared for us he would have made the universe perfect from the start, not "fine-tune" it.

  11. Post #11
    Gold Member
    Vasili's Avatar
    December 2007
    10,957 Posts
    If God is restricted by his own creation then he isn't divine as said, humans are close to unraveling the secrets of the universe and to even create our own - are we too Gods? The theory of God started when people did not even grasp science but rather words and mistrust, and as science has debunked more and more from religion they have merely found new ways to try and explain their God theory through using the very tools that are showing their beliefs as void.

    So naturally I always distrust God theories as they started with illiterate people.
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  12. Post #12
    Gold Member
    KlaseR's Avatar
    December 2007
    3,852 Posts
    Then he is not all caring. If he truly cared for us he would have made the universe perfect from the start, not "fine-tune" it.
    I agree, but what if he wasn't all caring?

  13. Post #13
    Gold Member
    Bredirish123's Avatar
    October 2006
    9,264 Posts
    what if god made the world like this on purpose?

    This video only shows that god didn't make the universe perfect. Who says he wanted to in the first place?
    This video is a response to people who believe in the finely tuned argument in which God finely tuned the Universe, Earth, and even the human species. The whole point of the OPs video is to basically ask this question, "If God is God then why did he have to finely tune things? Why not just make everything the way he intended whilst cutting out the tuning step?"
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  14. Post #14
    insert long title here
    SEKCobra's Avatar
    January 2009
    15,173 Posts
    No shit.

  15. Post #15
    J-Dude's Avatar
    December 2007
    1,657 Posts
    Wouldn't it just be easier to think that if the constants and coincidences that let our universe, our planet and ourselves exist hadn't verified, we ourselves would not be there to acknowledge and testify to it? One way to see it could be that we just live in one of the infinite potential parallel instances of this universe and coincidentally in the one that let us come to life; just because we could not have possibly come to life in any other instance (or most of them), it doesn't mean that someone or something (or the universe itself) fine-tuned our environment to make it possible for us to live. That's a very naive and blind-sighted argument in my opinion.
    This is what I have used in the past as well. Point is, the Universe isn't "finely tuned" for life, because it's HOSTILE to life on almost every point of it. The basis of the fine-tuning argument is that it's too convenient to be a coincidence, and if a Multiverse (likely) exists, then it's downright inevitable that Universes with the "settings" to harbor the possibility of life are going to exist. And that makes the need for a god downright laughable.

    This video is going a step further into the SOUL of the fine-tuning argument, and saying, if god is all-powerful, why does he NEED to "fine-tune" the Universe? Can't it just work because he SAYS it works? If the only way any of it works is because god HAD to make it a certain way, then obviously god has no control over the conditions in which life works, and is working WITH pre-existing conditions, like we do, and not MAKING the rules himself, as the notion of him creating EVERYTHING ultimately demands.
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  16. Post #16
    Twatwaffler's Avatar
    August 2010
    143 Posts
    Growing up I had a few sunday school lessons about how God was in a sense "bound" by laws of justice and mercy, in that he had to satisfy both of them. It wasn't so much that there was some higher power than him, just that that was what made him God, like part of being all-powerful and shit was that it was in his nature to satisfy these two laws. It's an argument made by some philosophers as well, I think Leibniz brought it up saying that god is good because he is good, rather than being good because he can decide what good is, because if it was the latter, then we would praise him just as much for doing something as for doing something else, like he could just do absolutely anything and it would always be a great thing just because it was him doing it.

    It's a weird thought, because it means that there's some higher set of natural laws/absolute morals outside of our own universe inherent to whatever sort of universe god exists in, which raises the question of whether god's "universe" had a creator as well.
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  17. Post #17
    S.T.A.R.S Member and Honorary B.O.W
    Scientwist's Avatar
    May 2008
    1,726 Posts
    I do not personally believe in any God or omnipotent entity or any theory of intelligent design that comes from such belief, but to try to give a response to your argument: wouldn't creating a flawed universe (as opposed to the meaning of "perfect" in this case, because we surely cannot define what perfection would be in these terms) be a demonstration of God's lack of power? Or, what would be the reason behind it, if there were one at all?
    True power is the ability to refrain from using it. Creating a flawed universe is a demonstration of just that.

    Because say you had the power to sling buses into the sun, doesn't mean you're going to do it "just because" now does it? I'm not being defensive, just trying to make a point. Perfection, a word created to describe that which is without flaws, something that has never been found and to some goes hand in hand with God. Perfection and God, words like any other created to describe, identify or express. Sometimes for things out of our reach and to truly define God or perfection would likely prove they're non existent. I can't say I do or don't believe in god, only the possibility there is an ancient being of sorts somewhere in the universe.

    Edited:

    Growing up I had a few sunday school lessons about how God was in a sense "bound" by laws of justice and mercy, in that he had to satisfy both of them. It wasn't so much that there was some higher power than him, just that that was what made him God, like part of being all-powerful and shit was that it was in his nature to satisfy these two laws. It's an argument made by some philosophers as well, I think Leibniz brought it up saying that god is good because he is good, rather than being good because he can decide what good is, because if it was the latter, then we would praise him just as much for doing something as for doing something else, like he could just do absolutely anything and it would always be a great thing just because it was him doing it.

    It's a weird thought, because it means that there's some higher set of natural laws/absolute morals outside of our own universe inherent to whatever sort of universe god exists in, which raises the question of whether god's "universe" had a creator as well.
    I'm not sure if you've ever seen The Dark Crystal, so I'll explain and put fourth an idea.

    In the beginning of the movie you soon learn of two races of creatures The UrSkeks and The Skeksis, the UrSkeks good and the Skeksis evil. Spoiler for those who haven't seen it     Later you find out that the UrSkeks and the Skeksis were once the same being and earlier on you saw one of each die at the beginning and again later about halfway through the movie.    

    With that in mind, there is good and evil in our world or put religiously, God and Satin. The big bang (theory or not, for arguments sake, lets say it's true (no pun intended)) very well could have been the start of more then just the matter we see, but also the "sources" of good and evil.

    /Speculation

  18. Post #18
    ARERARAGI <3
    Jammymanrock's Avatar
    July 2007
    408 Posts
    I agree with J-Dude. I think because of the massive scale of the universe and many parallel universes (although just theory), the probability of intelligent life evolving somewhere reaches 100%. I personally think religion is too self centred- they believe that a god created them for a reason when really it was just impossible for intelligent life to not evolve somewhere (especially as religion and intelligence are both human concepts, and without intelligent life would not exist )
    Still doesn't explain the big bang though
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  19. Post #19
    Mr. Scorpio's Avatar
    May 2010
    11,299 Posts
    True power is the ability to refrain from using it. Creating a flawed universe is a demonstration of just that.

    Because say you had the power to sling buses into the sun, doesn't mean you're going to do it "just because" now does it? I'm not being defensive, just trying to make a point. Perfection, a word created to describe that which is without flaws, something that has never been found and to some goes hand in hand with God. Perfection and God, words like any other created to describe, identify or express. Sometimes for things out of our reach and to truly define God or perfection would likely prove they're non existent. I can't say I do or don't believe in god, only the possibility there is an ancient being of sorts somewhere in the universe.

    Edited:



    I'm not sure if you've ever seen The Dark Crystal, so I'll explain and put fourth an idea.

    In the beginning of the movie you soon learn of two races of creatures The UrSkeks and The Skeksis, the UrSkeks good and the Skeksis evil. Spoiler for those who haven't seen it     Later you find out that the UrSkeks and the Skeksis were once the same being and earlier on you saw one of each die at the beginning and again later about halfway through the movie.    

    With that in mind, there is good and evil in our world or put religiously, God and Satin. The big bang (theory or not, for arguments sake, lets say it's true (no pun intended)) very well could have been the start of more then just the matter we see, but also the "sources" of good and evil.

    /Speculation
    what

    the fuck do jim henson movies and satin have to do with anything
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  20. Post #20
    Fire Fucker
    Rebi's Avatar
    March 2011
    2,501 Posts
    It's a good argument, I wouldn't really call it flawless though, considering the whole thing is based upon the assumption god would have the psychology and reasoning of a human.

  21. Post #21
    S.T.A.R.S Member and Honorary B.O.W
    Scientwist's Avatar
    May 2008
    1,726 Posts
    what

    the fuck do jim henson movies and satin have to do with anything
    God and the UrSkeks, Devil and the Skeksis, the big bang and the dark crystal. I'm trying to imply that due to the big bang that god is not himself a perfect being and that flaws are simply a part us.

    It is an analogy.

  22. Post #22
    Azza's Avatar
    December 2011
    767 Posts
    Can't take this seriously with the reverb he put on his voice.

  23. Post #23
    Marbalo's Avatar
    June 2011
    2,310 Posts
    I dont see how the universe is anywhere near finely tuned in the slightest (with us in mind, at that)

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  24. Post #24
    Sexist
    person11's Avatar
    July 2006
    6,987 Posts
    This video sounds all cool and stuff, but does not really explain anything.

    Atheists, including me, have got to learn that logical arguments do not work. It's stupid to use logic to disprove something that is based on Faith.
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  25. Post #25
    Extraction Point
    Empty_Shadow's Avatar
    July 2006
    8,323 Posts
    This video sounds all cool and stuff, but does not really explain anything.

    Atheists, including me, have got to learn that logical arguments do not work. It's stupid to use logic to disprove something that is based on Faith.
    Faith isn't evidence for anything, ergo ultimately any argument that is based on faith is flawed.
    It isn't a lack of ability to prove or disprove, it's that people refuse to change their beliefs.
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  26. Post #26
    Sexist
    person11's Avatar
    July 2006
    6,987 Posts
    Missing the point. You just said Faith is not an argument.

    I agree with that.

    But the point is that it does not matter that Faith is not evidence or that it is "flawed" when used in arguments.

    Arguments should not happen.

    Let the religious be religious, 99% of them are harmless.
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  27. Post #27
    Extraction Point
    Empty_Shadow's Avatar
    July 2006
    8,323 Posts
    I didn't say anything about that, I don't give two fucks what other people want to believe, they can waste their time if they want, I'm not going to stop them, and I'm not going to bother them about it either.
    If they start the argument however it's all bets off.

  28. Post #28
    Sexist
    person11's Avatar
    July 2006
    6,987 Posts
    It's been my impression that the religious never start the argument, but that may be just the people around me.

    These types of videos always seem to be a huge waste of time to me (just like the entire body of media that TAA has released to the internet)
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  29. Post #29
    Goodthief's Avatar
    December 2009
    5,967 Posts
    This video sounds all cool and stuff, but does not really explain anything.

    Atheists, including me, have got to learn that logical arguments do not work. It's stupid to use logic to disprove something that is based on Faith.
    Sam Harris says this perfectly, it's become a pointless argument now and there's no way you can change the other person's view (not that you should ever try)

    "Water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. What if someone says, Well, thats not how I choose to think about water.? All we can do is appeal to scientific values. And if he doesnt share those values, the conversation is over. If someone doesnt value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove they should value it? If someone doesnt value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?"
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  30. Post #30
    Bat-shit's Avatar
    October 2010
    13,386 Posts
    I think the point is that humans are pretty fine-tuned in terms of productivity and agility and shit. And that's the result of evolution and patience, "God's work".

  31. Post #31
    Gold Member
    cdBiohazard's Avatar
    August 2009
    2,666 Posts
    I fail to see any new points in that.

  32. Post #32
    Goodthief's Avatar
    December 2009
    5,967 Posts
    I fail to see any new points in that.
    in the video? there were lots of new points there, like the whole thing about external forces limiting him and how it's just like putting pieces of the puzzle together

  33. Post #33
    Yes but it's just a special case of God being bound by logic (eg he can't violate modus ponens).

    sorry but this really isn't as good an argument as it seems
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  34. Post #34
    gay mexican
    Lankist's Avatar
    July 2006
    14,576 Posts
    Any argument for god which assumes the universe is a stable, balanced and habitable thing is inherently flawed.

    As Dr. Tyson puts it, no engineer would be dumb enough to design the kind of shitty, inefficient, inevitably doomed universe that we live in. And I don't mean "shitty" as in subjectively, philosophically shitty. I mean the universe is objectively shitty in its basest construction. Stars burn finite resources, entropy is continually on the rise, life here on Earth is incredibly shoddy at-best. Those that think nature is miraculous are not looking at nature hard enough.

    Nature is incredibly stupid. Humanity, as it is today, could have designed a better Earth were it given the tools to do so. If this is your God, I do not understand why you would worship Him. He is completely incompetent. That's less of an argument for believing in God and more of an argument for finding and killing God so he doesn't fuck things up further.

    Edited:

    Also, invoking the "God's God," or in this instance "God's Boss," argument is completely asinine. God is already a thought-terminating cliche. Any time you can't answer a question, you say God did it. When you can't answer a question about God, you say God's boss did it. If I ask a question about God's boss, you'll say God's boss' boss did it. It goes on and fucking on and it accomplishes absolutely nothing. Invoking God alone already removes the question from an environment in which you can discover a legitimate answer. Each time you move another level up, you simply remove the question further and further from reality.

    It's not a fucking argument. It an extremely long line of fictitious wizards doing things for no goddamn reason.

  35. Post #35
    Ah yes "opinions"
    Jackald's Avatar
    October 2005
    17,004 Posts
    Omnipotence breaks the laws of logic anyway.


    Can an omnipotent God make a rock that he cannot lift?
    Can an omnipotent God lift the rock that he just made?

    The very concept of omnipotent means he cannot do one of these. Therefore God is not omnipotent (unless he breaks the laws of logic, which is what the theistic argument is to combat this argument)

    Edited:

    Nature is incredibly stupid. Humanity, as it is today, could have designed a better Earth were it given the tools to do so. If this is your God, I do not understand why you would worship Him. He is completely incompetent.
    Whilst I agree with you, the counter-argument is that God made the universe to be harsh to test and try us. The problem with that is that God is omnipotent and omniscient, which means he knows whether you'll pass the trial or not, which means he knows if you're going to heaven or hell.

    That's sort of the basis of calvanism; the concept that free will doesn't exist under a God because that God created you with the knowledge that you would be dammed, which means God created a person just to let them burn in hell for eternity, which brings into question whether God can truly be "all-loving"

    In fact, that brings us onto the trinity of logical flaws with the "all-loving, all-seeing, all-powerful" facets of God. There is suffering in the world, but God doesn't stop it. This means that 1 of the points about God must be wrong (or, again, he just defies logic and we don't understand him, which is again the argument against this. Kind of a copout if you ask me, but w/e)

    If God is all-loving and all-seeing, how can he be all powerful?
    If God is all-powerful and all-loving, how can he be seeing?
    If God is all-seeing and all-powerful, how can he be all loving?

    Edited:

    In fact, the counter-argument to any attempt to logically disprove God is "God defies logic" which is kind of frustrating because it's a completely airtight argument. If God defies logic, we cannot logically disprove him, therefore God cannot be disproved no matter how much evidence is put forward to argue against him.
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  36. Post #36
    Goodthief's Avatar
    December 2009
    5,967 Posts
    It's not so much the state the universe is at but rather the laws that govern it that -to me- gives the theory some meat. In physics the laws seem perfect, hundreds of seemingly arbitrary constants hold everything in perfect balance, of course there is speculation that this is the only way the laws of physics could exist but this only adds to the theory that God had no say in it. Still, I do agree that the theory is slightly flawed since we cannot say that this universe is finely tuned, after all every constant could actually be arbitrary and do compliment each other because of God's omnipotence.

  37. Post #37
    gay mexican
    Lankist's Avatar
    July 2006
    14,576 Posts
    Whilst I agree with you, the counter-argument is that God made the universe to be harsh to test and try us.
    Then that is not a god we should be worshipping. That is a god we should be killing to be rid of him.

    Fuck that god. Who the fuck does he think he is?

    You know how shit went down in the Matrix or Terminator or whatever?

    That's what should be happening for anyone who thinks God is that way. Fucking end him.

  38. Post #38
    Goodthief's Avatar
    December 2009
    5,967 Posts
    In fact, the counter-argument to any attempt to logically disprove God is "God defies logic" which is kind of frustrating because it's a completely airtight argument. If God defies logic, we cannot logically disprove him, therefore God cannot be disproved no matter how much evidence is put forward to argue against him.
    it's not so much air tight as it is void of reason, arguing against it is like trying to rob an empty house. The thing that theist think that they can do is just pull shit out of their asses without reason to do so
    "God defies logic"
    "aborted babies don't go to hell"
    Saying those things doesn't make them true and unless they have a reason to back them up they don't have an argument

  39. Post #39
    Ah yes "opinions"
    Jackald's Avatar
    October 2005
    17,004 Posts
    it's not so much air tight as it is void of reason, arguing against it is like trying to rob an empty house. The thing that theist think that they can do is just pull shit out of their asses without reason to do so
    "God defies logic"
    "aborted babies don't go to hell"
    Saying those things doesn't make them true and unless they have a reason to back them up they don't have an argument
    If God defies logic, then there's no reason why there should be any evidence for him.


    Just an FYI, I totally agree with you guys, i'm just playing devil's advocate (lol, irony) so to speak.

  40. Post #40
    Gold Member
    krail9's Avatar
    June 2008
    7,649 Posts
    my god this guy ticks backwards
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